Fujisawa Shuko's Dictionary of basic Tesuji at DDK ?

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:33 pm

jts wrote:Huh. I tend to be fairly selective about recommending the first volume of that series to DDK players because my recollection is that the difficulty level of the problems is about at "pull the stone out of atari". Am I thinking of a different book? How hard to the problems get?

It's the same book, the problems get a bit harder. I got it around 16/17k and solved it on sight on my first run through to give you an idea of difficulty (I remember being quite annoyed by the problems' difficulty). Volume II is a substantial step up in the latter half.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:01 pm

jts wrote:Huh. I tend to be fairly selective about recommending the first volume of that series to DDK players because my recollection is that the difficulty level of the problems is about at "pull the stone out of atari". Am I thinking of a different book? How hard to the problems get?

A bit harder... spot-the-killing-move-in-a-nakade-shape category. The most advanced concept of the book is perhaps the introduction of false eyes.
I feel puzzled by billywoods' comment too.
Although I suppose it does train the eye to spot the very basic things very quickly, I wonder how it can help a sdk gain a stone.

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:19 pm

jts wrote:Huh. I tend to be fairly selective about recommending the first volume of that series to DDK players because my recollection is that the difficulty level of the problems is about at "pull the stone out of atari". Am I thinking of a different book? How hard to the problems get?

A lot of the early ones are incredibly simple life-and-death (and one or two are even "is this move legal?"). Later on it gets a little harder. Here's one:

I think this problem's easy, but I don't think it's so easy that it's completely beneath strong DDK players (or weak SDK players with particularly weak reading) to practise problems like this over and over. There are many tens of problems involving snapbacks, throw-ins, and so on. There are a few problems involving unsettled groups with several potential eyes up for grabs, but only one way to make life / kill. There are plenty of problems involving groups that I would have just taken one glance at and written off as already alive that were actually killable. There are a few (13*13) whole-board problems. I went through this book twice and gained a stone or two in strength.

(I'm equally puzzled by the criticism my comment is receiving. Perhaps I'm stupid for not having been able to spot snapbacks very well until I was 8 kyu - or indeed clever for getting to 8 kyu with pathetic reading skills. I don't much mind either way. But I'm probably not the only one.)

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:04 pm

billywoods wrote:(I'm equally puzzled by the criticism my comment is receiving. Perhaps I'm stupid for not having been able to spot snapbacks very well until I was 8 kyu - or indeed clever for getting to 8 kyu with pathetic reading skills. I don't much mind either way. But I'm probably not the only one.)

It's not criticism (on my part at least). It's just, well, I went through vol 1 twice a long time ago when I was 20-18k. I dismissed it quite quickly to go on to vol 2, and although I went through vol 2 several times since then I never even considered going back to vol 1. Probably because it starts with those capture the atari problems, and also because vol 2 does a very good job in itself to explore snapbacks/throw-ins/false eyes, etc. Most people I think do the same and do not look at this book twice.
So it's higly surprising to read about a sdk improving on it.
You have convinced me to look at it once more.

There are plenty of problems involving groups that I would have just taken one glance at and written off as already alive that were actually killable.

Maybe that's the main point? As a SDK, you already have an instinct for what can/cannot live and some of those problems challenge that instinct, because groups are nearly settled but can still be killed in one move. While personnally, I never think instinctively a group is alive when it doesn't already have two eyes, so I do not wonder about such things, I wonder about where to put down my stones to make two eyes happen. And in this respect the problems are easy to read, once you are familiar with the tactics they introduce. Once I understood what a snapback was, I felt I was done with problems like the one above.
But that may well be wrong.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:08 pm

I can't find that problem in my copy (what number is it?) and the whole board problems are 19x19, did some problems change across editions? (I've the Smart Go edition)

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:14 pm

Problem 157 and the first opening problems and endgame problems are on 13*13 boards, to the end the book also uses 19*19 boards.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:16 pm

SoDesuNe wrote:Problem 157 and the first opening problems and endgame problems are on 13*13 boards, to the end the book also uses 19*19 boards.

Thank you.

Insane · Post by **Insane** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:32 pm

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:37 pm

Amelia wrote:Maybe that's the main point? As a SDK, you already have an instinct for what can/cannot live and some of those problems challenge that instinct

Indeed. I was probably an SDK with weak reading skills who had got by on shape and so on. I probably still am an SDK with weak reading skills. Perhaps your reading skills were very strong for your rank (well, probably, if you started vol. 2 at 18k), but your shape/tesuji/whatever wasn't so strong... or something. I don't know.

I'm not going to claim you'll learn anything new from volume 1 if you've already done volume 2 - but, even at 8k, I hadn't done very many tsumego at all. I knew perfectly well what a snapback was, but I hadn't internalised its shape - if there was a snapback right in front of me, I'd find it, but I couldn't set one up even if it was one move away, because it simply never occurred to me to look for it. Most of my reading was move-by-move and painfully slow. This drilled some basic shapes into me and speeded up the process by a huge factor.

Mage · Post by **Mage** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:00 pm

billywoods wrote: Great! Now turn the book upside-down and do them again. Without looking at the answers. The book claims to be 30-25 kyu, but is severely misranked - don't worry about it.

Good suggestion. My previous plan was to come back after forgetting most of it, but this should reduce the interval.

So....this is my final list

from which I plan to pick a few until I have spent ~$75

* Graded Go Problems Vols III, IV ($21 each)

* Mastering the Basics Series : 501 Opening Problems [Vol. I], 1001 Life-and-Death Problems [Vol. II], 501 Tesuji Problems [Vol. IV] ($25 each)

* Get Strong at the Opening, Get Strong at Joseki (3 Vols. !), Get Strong at Invading, Get Strong at Tesuji, Get Strong at the Endgame ($21 each)

I'm leaning towards the Get Strong Vols., maybe skipping the Joseki ones.

Amelia · Post by **Amelia** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:23 am

Perhaps your reading skills were very strong for your rank (well, probably, if you started vol. 2 at 18k), but your shape/tesuji/whatever wasn't so strong... or something. I don't know.

I don't think it was particularly strong. All of my reading skill at the time was taught to me by that book as I was solving it. And vol 2 was quite hard back then for me, but I was a stubborn beginner and thought it would make me stronger to solve harder and harder problems. It would probably make you laugh to know how long I spent glaring at those problems and trying to visualize a third move on the diagramm. It wasn't at all about internalizing shapes for me at the time.
It's only recently that I realized the benefit of solving easier problems over and over again.

* Graded Go Problems Vols III, IV ($21 each)

Vol 4 is hard. It's really, frustratingly hard (for me at 15k). Vol 3 has mostly 1-3 moves problems. Vol 4 starts out with 5 moves problems. If you have like me serious trouble to read several branches five moves ahead, consider leaving that book for later. SoDesuNe advises it for SDK ranks, I think he's right.

* Mastering the Basics Series : 501 Opening Problems [Vol. I], 1001 Life-and-Death Problems [Vol. II], 501 Tesuji Problems [Vol. IV] ($25 each)

I just got 1001 Life and Death. It starts with one move problems, then gets harder and I think that's a good book at DDK. The opening and tesuji problems are said to be harder and not so useful before SDK. But I haven't read them.

* Get Strong at the Opening, Get Strong at Joseki (3 Vols. !), Get Strong at Invading, Get Strong at Tesuji, Get Strong at the Endgame ($21 each)

I have Get strong at Tesuji, I think it's a useful one to have at 15-14k and above. I don't know about the others.

Don't focus too much about getting a complete series, I think it's better to pick what you need at the moment and complete the series as your level goes up.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:48 am

Mage wrote: * Graded Go Problems Vols III, IV ($21 each)

If you are having problems with I, III will be extremely difficult for you at the moment and IV pretty much impossible. The thing is you will want III at some point as a DDK so it's a reasonable purchase, IV not so much unless you're happy to leave a book unused for ages.

Mage wrote:* Mastering the Basics Series : 501 Opening Problems [Vol. I], 1001 Life-and-Death Problems [Vol. II], 501 Tesuji Problems [Vol. IV] ($25 each)

The early sections of 1001 L&D are very doable early on as a DDK, the latter sections not so much but still a useful book. A good bit harder than GGP Vol I but a book you will want. The other two you can leave for a whole, Opening problems are disputed as being useful for people and 501 Tesuji is SDK material.

Mage wrote:* Get Strong at the Opening, Get Strong at Joseki (3 Vols. !), Get Strong at Invading, Get Strong at Tesuji, Get Strong at the Endgame ($21 each)

Get Strong at Tesuji, you need this book! it is the perfect introduction to the subject, it has everything from weak DDK problems to a couple of dan level problems in it letting you get use out of it for a long time. The other books in the Get Strong at Series are far, far more difficult and not really that accessible as a DDK. It's the same with 1001 L&D above, its difficulty level is vasty different to the other books in the series.

If I had to say three books based on what I found useful, Get Strong at Tesuji definitely, 1001 Life and Death Problems also (though you might have to wait a few stones before being able to get a lot of use out of this book) and maybe GGPfB Vol III in the sense that if you keep at go you'll want it anyway. If you were only to get one book get Get Strong at Tesuji because it'll have problems immediately accessible to you (not *that* many, but some).

cherryhill · Post by **cherryhill** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:55 pm

would you suggest doing get strong at tesuji before tesuji by davies?

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:07 pm

cherryhill wrote:would you suggest doing get strong at tesuji before tesuji by davies?

I did it that way, I started Get Strong at Tesuji around 15/16k and finally did Davies' Tesuji at around 10k. I don't know if this is best or not but I definitely found Tesuji made a lot more sense to me at that strength than when I looked at it around 15/16k (I bought both books in the same order). Your mileage may vary.

palapiku · Post by **palapiku** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:28 pm

I find Get Strong at Tesuji to be much more difficult than 1001 Life and Death Problems. You don't really know what the problem expects from you. Sometimes the benefits of the "correct" answer are rather abstract.

Life In 19x19

Fujisawa Shuko's Dictionary of basic Tesuji at DDK ?

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