Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

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duckweed
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by duckweed »

RobertJasiek wrote:Isn't there also the other side? Can the administrators learn from issuing a ban? E.g., they might communicate why they have issued bans, so that hopefully fewer bans occur in future. And no, it is not just a matter of TOC, but it is also a matter of how TOC are interpreted. E.g., the tolerance level to off-topic kibitzes appears to have dropped. It can definitely help users if they are aware of such changes in time, so that they are not accidentally trapped in a ban for saying something that nobody was caring about a year or two ago.


Why not just create your own thread about admins and kibitzes instead of hijacking this one?

Joaz Banbeck wrote:http://www.lifescript.com/life/relationships/wreckage/how_to_move_on_10_steps_for_post-break_up_closure.aspx

...is one of many that can be found by taking a unique but non-go phrase from the OP and googling it. :lol:


I'm glad at least some enjoyed my parody.
Boidhre
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Boidhre »

kaseki wrote:I guess it is worth clarifying that if a particular comment zone is intended for discussion about anything, then only bad manners sould be an issue within that zone. Games, however, should have comments limited to the game and by extension to related games and potential past and future moves. Questioning the rank of players who are playing is not helpful and clutters up the commentary. Making nasty remarks about players, or about persons commenting or asking questions, falls into the bad manners category. Ideally, self-censorship would be sufficient, but it quickly becomes clear to anyone paying attention to the comments in games by popular players that some just can't resist the urge to say something -- anything -- to be noticed.

Persons who should self-censor the most are those who string together expletives in their daily conversations, because they are going to make a mistake very quickly typing comments. (I wonder what they have left to say for pain suppression after hitting a thumb with a hammer.)

kas

P.S. Grassroots support for my moderatorship will have to be deferred at least until I have the time -- sometime after I retire perhaps.


I assume you apply some discretion though? I mean, if there are only two people in the kibitz it's fairly immaterial if they go off-topic or not, versus the situation where you have two high dan players playing and a couple of hundred watching.
Kirby
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Kirby »

Mef wrote:...
A while back in one of these discussions I went through and totaled up the statistics on a month of admin activity. Given that the only things that are logged are events that actually require using admin powers (bans / eventing games / approving avatars / etc). That's where the 30% figure and my ballpark estimate for 100 bans/week come from.


OK, so to clarify, the items that this statistic covers are (as from your post):
* Managing KGS+
* Approving user avatars
* Announcing and flagging event games
* Deranking rank cheaters
* Banning

So for a particular month, some time in the past, you counted all of the log messages for each of these categories, and about 30% of that count was for banning. Given that your count of 100 bans/week was also from that sample, we can infer that there were approximately 400 bans in the month.

Minus any error in your approximation, this implies that there were at least 933 logged events from the categories that month:
* Managing KGS+
* Approving user avatars
* Announcing and flagging event games
* Deranking rank cheaters

From here on out, I am going to make a hypothetical analysis, which I believe to be fair. It's all I really can do because, as speedchase implied, the information about your particular sample can only really be known by you and anyone with whom you shared it.

Looking at the KGS Event Calendar, I see two events for the month of March. From the referenced SL page, the maximum number of events in a given month were 8. This is not comprehensive data, but let's say that there were more than the max number of events, say 10 events for the month of your sample. In my experience on KGS, event games are broadcast once, or maybe twice. I don't know what's involved in "flagging event games", but let's be generous and say that there are 10 things that an admin has to do for a given event game. That gives, at an optimistic maximum, 100 logged events in a given month.
Image

This means that there were at least 833 logged events in that month for:
* Managing KGS+
* Approving user avatars
* Deranking rank cheaters

On KGS right now, there are 22 users marked with [-] and 19 with [?]. A deranked user cannot have a rank by his name, so assuming that half of the people logged onto KGS right now with [-] or [?] is a rank cheater, that's 20.5 users that have been deranked. I've been deranked by BigDoug before (not because I was a "rank cheater", but because he assumed I was cheating when I referenced my wife's KGS account), and even though I was not "rank cheating" at that time, it still took a couple of weeks for me to not be "deranked" (which was silly in itself!). I suspect most individuals that are deranked are deranked for longer than that, but let's assume that each of those 20.5 users from above that are "rank cheaters" right now are on average deranked for 2 weeks. Then in a given month, on average, let's say that there are 41 people that get deranked.

This means there were at least 792 logged events for:
* Managing KGS+
* Approving user avatars

It's approaching the end of March, and there are 13 KGS+ lectures in the lecture history. The month is about 74% over (23/31 for March 23rd). Extrapolating evenly to the end of the month, there's 17.52 lectures this month. Let's round it up to 20. I do not know what is meant by "Managing KGS+", but let's say that you have to do 5 logged events for a given KGS+ lecture. This gives 100 events a month for "Managing KGS+".

This leaves 692 logged events for:
* Approving user avatars

Summarizing this analysis points to the following approximate distribution:
Image

If we measure admin utility by the number of events logged in this manner, clearly, the greatest utility is achieved in banning and approving avatars.

This analysis is obviously based on my personal hypothetical estimates of the categories that you listed, to the aggregate of which banning constitutes at most 30%. Still, even with real "non-hypothetical" data, a sample size over a single month cannot be that much better of an estimate of the true "banning to other-activity" ratio.

A measure of logged events is also not a real indicator of the amount of effort or value that an admin gives to the server. For example, if approving a user avatar takes a couple of seconds of time (I've had avatars approved this quickly), the effort required to do this is clearly small. The benefit added to the server also cannot be measured simply by log messages that this was performed by a particular admin. Who is to say that the common public even agrees with the admin's discretion as to what images are "appropriate"? I've seen various approved avatars that are not family friendly in everyone's eyes (eg. women in scant clothing).

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the point that an aggregate measurement of admin activity does not imply that all admins perform a uniform distribution of the same types of tasks.

tl/dr: My arguments here are somewhat in jest, but only to illustrate the point that the question of an admin's value to the server, and/or the effort they exert, cannot be taken seriously from a 30-day sample of log files. Likewise, just throwing around a stat like that to try to strengthen the argument doesn't achieve its intended purpose.
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by kaseki »

boldhre: I wasn't trying by my comments to suggest an algorithm for transforming violations to consequences. I was observing that "shunning" by suppressing comments for some period as a penalty would be less drastic than outright banning, and that it would perhaps better retain the purpose of the server, providing go games to play and observe.

If we have a strong urge to establish such rules, then I am game once I have had time to observe a significant sample of behaviors that lead to bans.

duckweed: With respect to your now revealed parody, I apologize for any inadvertant contribution to thread hijacking. I suppose that the only way to stay purely on topic would have been to limit one's comments to whatever sociology conjecture seemed to be relevant.

Kirby: Another reason for the [?] rank is being away from KGS for a long enough period that one has to rejoin with no rank.

kas
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Javaness2 »

Bill Spight wrote:
Mef wrote:Now let's ballpark that there are about 100 users manually blocked from KGS per week.


:shock:


So I guess you've never played strategy games online then :)
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Javaness2 »

Kirby wrote:tl/dr: My arguments here are somewhat in jest, but only to illustrate the point that the question of an admin's value to the server, and/or the effort they exert, cannot be taken seriously from a 30-day sample of log files. Likewise, just throwing around a stat like that to try to strengthen the argument doesn't achieve its intended purpose.


To be perfectly honest, I found duckweed's joke funnier.
Kirby
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Kirby »

Javaness2 wrote:...

To be perfectly honest, I found duckweed's joke funnier.


As a KGS admin, I would imagine that you would.
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hyperpape
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by hyperpape »

Kirby wrote:The OP is amusing, and kind of an interesting idea, I think. But I have to agree with Robert here. But maybe I'll go even further than that...

In some ways, I'd almost prefer not having admins. People always scoff at the idea, and then make some comment about Yahoo go and the lack of structure there - or something like that. But I can't recall a single instance that I really wished that someone would be banned, whereas I do recall times where I was a little upset with an admin's apparent decision to ban someone.

I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here, but I'd be pretty happy with a server that had no admins. I guess the only thing I can think of that would bug me is spam (which has a different meaning to different people).
I mostly don't see the need for admins to ban the people on KGS or on L19. But that's because they're here, doing their work!

If you have any doubt, go read rec.games.abstract for awhile, or the comments thread of the average blog. Or note that the game network for the Wii has an entire part of their system designed to detect user submitted drawings of male genitalia.
Koroviev
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Re: Ten steps to moving on after a KGS ban

Post by Koroviev »

First post: quite amusing

Subsequent posts: hilarious.
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