? about reading and visualization

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jts
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by jts »

leichtloeslich wrote:
You said "once you've seen a ladder you've seen them all", and I disagree, that's all.

Yes, I did say that.

And yes, in isolation it's quite clearly a false statement. You don't even have to disagree, it's just factually wrong.

So I suppose there was a misunderstanding and bad wording on my part. What I meant to say was

"Once you have seen one repetitive diagonal zig-zag pattern spawned by a series of ataris spanning half of the board, you've seen them all."

Good we got that cleared up.

Okay, but you're begging the question. If you're following out a ziggy zaggy all the way across the board and it runs into one or zero stones, then it is easy to read out, it always works the same way, and you can just trace the diagonal. If, on the other hand, there is a cluster of stones in the path of the ladder, a change in direction, or an interaction between a ladder and another reading problem, it's not nearly so easy. But here's the thing - when people say that they can read out a ladder fifty moves ahead, they're not talking about the easy kind of ladder, they're talking about the latter ladder too. And they didn't get to the point where they could read out fifty moves in a complex ladder by tracing their hand over a diagonal - you start by reading out easy ladders, even though you know the answer, then you read out broken ladders, then you keep adding more and more complexity.

Cherry hill. If you search the forum for a post like "share your ladders" you'll find a collection of ladder problems.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by Thunkd »

Most of the time it's sufficient to look at the "zig-zag" without visualizing the stones. Occasionally though when there are stones that are close it's not entirely clear that they are a ladder breaker until you visualize the stones. Everyone has probably misread a ladder and belatedly realizing that it doesn't in fact work because one of your blocking stones will be in atari due to a stone that didn't look like it changed the situation, but completely did.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by often »

if you can't read that far, don't worry about it, it comes with time.
just read as far as you can and that will be enough for your level
as you play more you'll be able to read farther just by the fact of doing it a bunch.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by vpopovic »

I don't do diagonals. It's useless in complex ladders.
I zig zag till it comes into vicinity of another stone(s), then visualise forcing sequence in interaction with other stone(s) on the way.
The only ladder in last two months I read wrong is the one I was too lazy to read and just assumed it works because it seemed so.
On the other hand, it's surprisingly how many games I won vs 9-7k because they misread simple ladders.
My only advice regarding ladders: just don't be lazy. It's easy.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by SmoothOper »

I definitely have to visualize to solve difficult problems, so that I can look at the play and see which groups have liberties at each stage. It gets really tricky and confusing when I have to back track and try different solutions when my first intuition is wrong or the scope of play expands. Even with ladders, I have to visualize the end points and what has liberties at different stages.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by Unusedname »

[quote="daal" when reading, what's important is that we know how many liberties each group has and whether it leaves behind cutting points etc. [/quote]

This is where I have trouble.
I can focus on one group and know how many liberties it has. But when there are multiples I have to reread the sequence multiple times and focus on each group to recount the amount of liberties/cutting points etc.

And when it comes to corner problems.... Sacrifice. I did not misread I merely added more stones to sacrifice so I could get outside moves. :blackeye:
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by xed_over »

yeah, I totally have problems visualizing as I try to read.

my biggest problems are shortage of liberties, snapbacks and throw-ins. Put all those together and I really have trouble.

For example, this problem should be easy, but I just can't see it (I see it now that I've looked at the answer, but months later, I'll forget again)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . X . , . . .
$$ | . . X X . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O O O X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . X O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . O O X . X .
$$ | . X . . O . O X . . . .
$$ +-------------------------[/go]
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by snorri »

xed_over wrote:my biggest problems are shortage of liberties...


In a purile sense, shortage of liberties is the entirety of go1, so yeah, that's a problem.

(Also, me too. In your example problem, I see the main line pretty much instantly, but verifying that nothing else works runs into some illusions. :))

[1] For those who don't immediately catch why I say that...

Consider stone scoring or no pass go with prisoner return. In those rulesets, one keeps playing stones until it is not possible to do so because of...what? Self-Atari. I.e., shortage of liberties. So in a very real sense, one can think about go as not being about having the most territory, but having enough liberties to have the right to keep putting stones on the board so that you don't run short before your opponent does and don't lose too many stones in captures during the game due to what? ... shortage of liberties. :)
Last edited by snorri on Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by daal »

xed_over wrote:yeah, I totally have problems visualizing as I try to read.

my biggest problems are shortage of liberties, snapbacks and throw-ins. Put all those together and I really have trouble.

For example, this problem should be easy, but I just can't see it (I see it now that I've looked at the answer, but months later, I'll forget again)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . X . , . . .
$$ | . . X X . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . X O O O O X X . . .
$$ | . X O X . . X O X . . .
$$ | . X O O X . O O X . X .
$$ | . X . . O . O X . . . .
$$ +-------------------------[/go]

This problem points to another essential difficulty of reading: every stone played affects the liberties of each group it touches, so you need to simultaneously keep track of several changing statuses. Looking at the problem on the computer, I found it too difficult to read out. After laying the problem out on a board, and placing my first idea, I realized (what I think to be) the answer at once.
In my mind, I had overlooked the fact that the first stone put not one, but two groups in atari. :roll: It's hard to imagine someone not seeing this, but my explanation is that I was preoccupied with the effect on the one group, and simply allowed myself to feel overwhelmed. Seeing does make knowing easier.
Patience, grasshopper.
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by leichtloeslich »

Here's one I once had very big problems visualizing. It contains the same pattern as xed_over's tsumego (not the throw-in part, though).

Even knowing the solution it's still hard to visualize, imho.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . O O O X . . .
$$ | . X X X O X . X . .
$$ | O O O O X . X . . ,
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: ? about reading and visualization

Post by xed_over »

leichtloeslich wrote:Here's one I once had very big problems visualizing. It contains the same pattern as xed_over's tsumego (not the throw-in part, though).

Even knowing the solution it's still hard to visualize, imho.

Yeah, I couldn't do it without putting it on a board and trying out a few different variations.

But I also suffer from the kyu-disease (not wanting any of my stones to be captured/sacrificed), which also greatly hinders visualization.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 9@1
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . 3 8 5 7 . X . . .
$$ | 4 6 1 O O O X . . .
$$ | 2 X X X O X . X . .
$$ | O O O O X . X . . ,
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 9@1
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . 3 8 5 7 . X . . .
$$ | 4 2 1 O O O X . . .
$$ | 6 X X X O X . X . .
$$ | O O O O X . X . . ,
$$ | . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . X . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]


cool problem (assuming I even got it right)

edit: found 2nd solution
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