Truth (and therefore correct information) is absolute. It is possible to perceive / teach incomplete information. Incomplete information does not require incorrectness. In particular, there is no need whatsoever to teach incorrect information such as "an eye kills no eyes" in a position such as this capturing race, where Black has an eye and White has no eyes in the shape of his own string.DrStraw wrote:Correct information is relative to strength.
Capturing races
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6273
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: Capturing races
-
RBerenguel
- Gosei
- Posts: 1585
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:44 am
- Rank: KGS 5k
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: RBerenguel
- Tygem: rberenguel
- Wbaduk: JohnKeats
- Kaya handle: RBerenguel
- Online playing schedule: KGS on Saturday I use to be online, but I can be if needed from 20-23 GMT+1
- Location: Barcelona, Spain (GMT+1)
- Has thanked: 576 times
- Been thanked: 298 times
- Contact:
Re: Capturing races
For me, "an eye kills no eyes" (even in my 25k days) meant clearly "when one of the groups has an eye, beware!"
Geek of all trades, master of none: the motto for my blog mostlymaths.net
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Capturing races
The proverb in Japanese is me ari me nashi, or, with a slightly free translation, eye vs. no eye. It is just a phrase. It refers to this kind of position.
White is dead by me ari me nashi.
At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is.
And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.
White is dead by me ari me nashi.
At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is.
And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
DrStraw
- Oza
- Posts: 2180
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:09 am
- Rank: AGA 5d
- GD Posts: 4312
- Online playing schedule: Every tenth February 29th from 20:00-20:01 (if time permits)
- Location: ʍoquıɐɹ ǝɥʇ ɹǝʌo 'ǝɹǝɥʍǝɯos
- Has thanked: 237 times
- Been thanked: 662 times
- Contact:
Re: Capturing races
Truth most definitely is not absolute unless you perceive the world as a binary black/white phenomenon. But then, of course, you lose the pleasures of perceiving all the in between shades and all the other colors.RobertJasiek wrote:Truth (and therefore correct information) is absolute. It is possible to perceive / teach incomplete information. Incomplete information does not require incorrectness. In particular, there is no need whatsoever to teach incorrect information such as "an eye kills no eyes" in a position such as this capturing race, where Black has an eye and White has no eyes in the shape of his own string.DrStraw wrote:Correct information is relative to strength.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
-
RobertJasiek
- Judan
- Posts: 6273
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Been thanked: 797 times
- Contact:
Re: Capturing races
When speaking about capturing races, they are a subproblem of Go, which is a perfect-information game and therefore accessible to distinguishing truth from falsehood AFA the theory of capturing races has already been researched and solved.
-
Aidoneus
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:37 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Indiana
- Has thanked: 114 times
- Been thanked: 176 times
Re: Capturing races
If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.Bill Spight wrote:The proverb in Japanese is me ari me nashi, or, with a slightly free translation, eye vs. no eye. It is just a phrase. It refers to this kind of position.
White is dead by me ari me nashi.
At a more advanced level we can talk about exactly why that is.
And at an even more advanced level we can talk about this position.
If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?
-
Cassandra
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 1326
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:33 am
- Rank: German 1 Kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 14 times
- Been thanked: 153 times
Re: Capturing races
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Capturing races
Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you.Aidoneus wrote: If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.
If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?
What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
-
Aidoneus
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:37 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Indiana
- Has thanked: 114 times
- Been thanked: 176 times
Re: Capturing races
Sure, White d, Black a for an eye and now Black owns the shared liberty at c.Bill Spight wrote:Well, you haven't said what happens if White starts at "d", but I think that's easy for you.Aidoneus wrote: If Black to play, a makes an eye, which gives Black the shared liberties in the corner. Even if White plays at d to stop Black from getting a second eye, Black b kills. Essentially, Black a gives him 3 liberties versus White 1 liberty.
If White to play, White a and then Black d gets one eye. But now White cannot play e as it is self atari. So Black owns the shared liberty at e which can be filled after Black plays atari at b. So it looks like Black wins, again. Have I missed something?
What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?
I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.
I love doing tesuji. I had no trouble doing the problems included with SmartGo at first, but now I am up to those graded 8k, and my success rate at reading the full answers is down to about 1/3 or 1/4. I probably recognize the key first move better than 1/2 the time, though I am often unable to visualize the correct response to some defense, or even completely overlook some defense. But I am nothing if not persistent! Thank you for your feedback.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: Capturing races
Sorry, I was fishing for a simpler answer. White is dead.Aidoneus wrote:I figured, but I guess did not state explicitly, Black wins because White cannot prevent him from getting an eye.Bill Spight wrote:
What conclusion do you draw from the fact that Black wins regardless of who plays first?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.