#231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

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drmwc
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


B has an interesting strategy of trying to play quickly whilst giving up bits and bobs. I think it loses some points - the 32/33 exchange is clearly bad.

However, The move played is clearly sente e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 bad for white
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . O 6 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


This line is bad for me.

So given I've decided to reply, which point is best? The move below looks interesting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X 2 X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . 1 O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 3 a . O . . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


But this leave me very thin - black at a next may work immediately. So I've decided to play solidly and bide my time. If Joaz next takes the 3-3, my decision is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ -----------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------------------[/go]


I have the choice of two points - I can tenuki the 3-3 due to the 2-3 excchange, although it leaves me thin and B at 7 may be sente.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

White caught up almost a stone now? 32 lost about 5 points I guess (trying to factor in black lost option to make eye/a few points with j2, white m3 threatens to connect now, white still has a nice peep at h6)
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

To my opponent and observers: Life has been busy lately. It may be a few more days.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Bump! :)
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Sorry everyone, a new business venture developed some complications, but they have recently been beaten into submission.

I'll move now, make comments later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Q (unrelated to go): What do you call a pig with no eyes?
A (unrelated to go):Pg.

The 3-3 is very big - since I was seriously considering replying to it if Joaz played there, it may be double sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This continuation is possible. I prefer 3 to the other side approach, since black may get a reasonable moyo after a pincer with the other approach move e.g.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X 8 . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Black gets a big moyo here. Of course, I have altnerantive approach moves and I don't need to go into the 3-3. But approaching from the other side bypasses these issues so is my current favourite.

Joaz may tenuki the 3-3 (that may be the intention behind the slightly odd LHS extension.)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 3 4 . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Then I can quickly nab some more territory in sente, creating some cutting aji, then plop a stone somewhere in B's moyo. I seem to have made some inroads into B's initial advantage in this diagram.

On a side note, I think this point may be becoming large:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 3 . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


It's on the boundary of two moyos. It's may be a little too early to play it, but compare it with this:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


Black creates a deep valley for his moyo - a reaonable chunk may become territory.
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skydyr
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by skydyr »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This looks really close to black's wall? I'm curious about the explanation because I don't understand it.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Sorry everyone, a new business venture developed some complications, but they have recently been beaten into submission.

I'll move now, make comments later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


:b36: extends only three spaces? Oh, dear!
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Bill Spight »

Now I ask you, which of these do you prefer as Black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 A
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 B
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


Not where I said I would play in an earlier post- on further reflection, I changed my mind.

A possible continuation is:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . 5 . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


My aims with this sequence are:
1) Point out that B 36 is on a slightly eccentric point;
2) Make black overconcentrated;
3) Suppress any possible black moyo (e.g. black a before I play this sequence)
4) Give white an aim of a moyo.

Since this is so many aims, I prefer it to the apporach move I showed before.

Black has around 15-20 points LHS (including the star point stones); 15 - 25 points lower right; 15 points upper right. This totals around 45 points (lower estimate) or 60 points (upper end).

White has 15 points lower left, and maybe 10 point on the right for around 25 points. So I'm behind by around 20 points (or 40 points if the middlegame and endgame goes awry); and it black's sente (which is quite valuable here).

Offsetting this is white's thickness - if I get centre moyo, it could easily net 20 points. So counting it a 10 points feels reasonable.

Overall, I am still behind but I've caught up by a reaonable amount and it now feels like maybe a 2 to 2.5 stone advantage for black.

An example of a moyo strategy for me, continuing from the previous diagram,is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , 5 . 3 X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


I probably won't play this way, since it's a little 1-dimensional and territorial, but it demonstrates that the thickness may have a reasonable amount of value.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 0 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . O 5 . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


The natural response.
Although, I must admit that my inner DDK wanted to use the wall to grab territory by playing D8.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Uberdude »

My inner dan is angry and full of kiai and wants to tenuki, or at least play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm39
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 6 9 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by skydyr »

Uberdude wrote:
My inner dan is angry and full of kiai and wants to tenuki, or at least play something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm39
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 0 . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 7 6 9 . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------------------------[/go]


@Uberdude
Out of curiosity, do you think black should have responded differently or with tenuki instead of :b40:? I at least considered a pincer from the other side, since black's wall is in no danger.
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Re: #231 drmwc vs Joaz Banbeck

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

At move 36, Joaz Banbeck wrote:...
I'll move now, make comments later.

In the following position, I have several concerns:
1) The push-and-cut around 'a', and
2) White building a safe group around 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X a . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


In the worst possible circumstances, he might be able to do both.

So, what to do?
I'd like to take the 3-3, but this leaves me open to the push and cut, which goes like this - I think.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 2 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . B . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


My wall is compromised, and I may have to use it to make eyes in gote. That is just too ugly to even consider.

The other plan would be to take the big point on the side like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31
$$ ----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . B . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 X X . X X X X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 3 . . . O . . O . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O . O X X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------[/go]


This turns out badly too. White either gets a huge corner, or we both live small on the side, and again, my wall is compromised.

I've got two places that I want to play: the corner and the side. Both have issues.
So I chose a blend of the two, something not quite fish or foul. I'm sure it pleases nobody. Heck, it doen't even please me. But I couldn't find any other way of avoiding both problems.
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