How to play in the top right?

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Abyssinica
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How to play in the top right?

Post by Abyssinica »

I have literally never seen S15 in response to a double approach, so I improvised. And for that matter, what's the use of a move like S15 as a response to a single 4-4 kakari?

http://eidogo.com/#2KmRfAPmg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 2 X . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by Uberdude »

Covering with 6 feels good but push of 8 crude.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

What Ubderdude said. How about taking 6-6 directly ?
Both the pushes (a) and (b) are standard bad habits, aji keshi, etc.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O a . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . b X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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wineandgolover
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by wineandgolover »

I'd be perfectly happy to be wrong, and not a bit surprised, but Ed's 1 feels a bit submissive to me. I would just descend, and be happy that black is forcing me to play a move I want to play anyway. The aji in the corner is super-annoying, and black will likely play another move to help white further. :)

Anyway, the cuts aren't that scary because white will only end up with at most one weakish group in the end.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by wineandgolover on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Brady
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logan
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by logan »

For this position I recommend White 'a'. Black will probably continue with 'b' for a small running fight. I don't recommend White 'c', because Black can favorably cut with :bt:.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . b . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . Y . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 1, Bad Black
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . 8 7 . . . . . . |
$$. . . 9 6 O 3 . . . . |
$$. , . . 0 2 4 X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . 5 . 1 . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Cont. 1
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$. . 1 X O 2 4 . . . . |
$$. . . O X O O . . . . |
$$. , . . X X X X . . . |
$$. . . 5 . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . O . O . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 2
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . 9 7 . . . . . . |
$$. . 0 8 6 O 3 . . . . |
$$. , . . . 2 4 X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . . . 5 . 1 . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. , . . . . . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11 Variation 2
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . O O . . . 1 . . |
$$. . X X X O O . . . . |
$$. , . . . X X X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . X . |
$$. . 2 . O . O . O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Variation 3, Bad White
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . . . |
$$. , . . . 5 4 X . . . |
$$. . . . . 7 1 2 . X . |
$$. . . . . . 6 3 O . . |
$$. . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. , . . . . . Y . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Uberdude
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by Uberdude »

I, like logan, had some concerns about the cut. But taking a pragmatic approach the sort of kyu player who plays s15 is unlikely to cut and fight strongly so you can probably get away with the cover of 6 ;-) . But also the black corner is not alive yet, so what happens here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fighting
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . . . |
$$. , . . . O X X 2 4 . |
$$. . . . . O O X 1 X . |
$$. . . . . . X O O 3 . |
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . . . 7 . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$. , . . . . . Y 6 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
5 is usually a bad shape armpit hit, but if black blocks 7 seems to get out, so if block on top... If white can make a small life on the side then he is threatening to kill the corner with a-e, but maybe black f is sente against the life of the right side group so white couldn't kill the corner (or can you kill L+1 in a different way where that doesn't help?). If both live probably it's good for black who gets thick outside, but not so awful for white it might be worth taking the risk of 5-5 cover.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Fighting 2
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . a b . . |
$$. . . . . O . c d . . |
$$. , . . . O X X 2 4 f |
$$. . . . . O O X 1 X e |
$$. . . . . . X O O 3 . |
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 8 9 . |
$$. . . . . . . 6 5 . . |
$$. , . . . . . Y 7 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 0 . . |[/go]
Does black nobi with 1 here? Is 5 too much if white then a? It seems so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Fighting 2a
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . . . |
$$. , . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . . . O O X O X . |
$$. . . . . . X O O O . |
$$. . . . . . X . 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . a X O . |
$$. . . . . . . X O . . |
$$. , . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Or just direct double hane? But then does white 6 threaten to cut at a so alive in sente and kill the corner with 8? Or does black 7 capture the one stone, so white should cut at 7 first? In which variations does black b become sente on the white group (aiming at c and snpback) in which case the black corner can live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Fighting 2b
$$ ---------------------
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$. . . . . O . . . . . |
$$. , . . . O X X X X . |
$$. . . . . O O X O X b |
$$. . . . . . X O O O . |
$$. . . . . . X 6 . . c |
$$. . . . . . 5 4 X O . |
$$. . . . . . a X O . . |
$$. , . . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . . . . 7 1 2 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Quite a lot of reading to do. :)
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Bill Spight
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I kind of like :w3:. Now Black has no good move in the corner. :b2: therefore protects nothing.
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— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

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Uberdude
Judan
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by Uberdude »

Another idea is to 3-3 directly, as this hanging connection of 5 means you connect to one of the approach stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Bad direction for black's sanrensei
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O 8 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc More of the corner than the slide, but black gets thicker.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 2 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
Btw, this hanging connection tesuji is why black should kick with 5 in this joseki to protect the 3-3:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 5 . . . . |
$$ . . 6 . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . |
$$ . . . 7 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
It's been a while since an illustative OGS game ;-) Go to move 73:
Last edited by Uberdude on Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: How to play in the top right?

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc More of the corner than the slide.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 7 5 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . 2 1 6 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
Well, yes, but. . . . Now the :wc: - :bc: exchange does not look so great, as it gives up the capture of :b6:.

That's one reason I prefer the slide at :w3:. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Unusedname
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Re:

Post by Unusedname »

EdLee wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |[/go]
I would say that the marked white stone is safer from a cut because it has more space.

So instead of b to protect the cut use 1. Strengthens the side and prepares to pincer the Q10 stone.

It gives black R12 but can he ignore S14?

I'm pretty sure I'm wrong but I don't know why I'm wrong.
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