How to respond in this case?

gostudent · Post by **gostudent** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:30 am

In the following sequence, B5 cannot tenuki, because there is a sequence after W6 B7 that will make white very thick.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . 4 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, if B7 plays this way, it seems to lead to a fight that white is not easy to win:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . 4 7 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have tried different sequences, and it seems that the black corner group cannot be killed. One example sequence is

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 7 0 c | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 4 8 b | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White plays at a cannot save the two white stone because of snapback, and white playing at b or c also doesn't seem to work either.

Is there any sequence to kill black that I miss? If black is alive, how should white respond after the cut?

Thanks.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:15 am

How do you feel about this ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

W gets a lot of cash, and B has a heavy group.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:19 am

How about a move like

which makes miai to connect to either side. If b tries hard to threaten one of the split w groups something like the following could happen (just dreaming

I cannot foresee all possible variations here of course...).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c :w10: captures at a $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O 3 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Update: I have not tested

thoroughly and EdLee's variation is probably good enough.

Update II: Another possible variation after

which looks quite satisfactory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c :w10: jumps at a $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 4 7 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 1:22 am

gostudent wrote:
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 7 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 7 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 4 8 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White plays at a cannot save the two white stone because of snapback

No. Read again and find the correct reason W(a) fails.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:43 am

schawipp wrote:How about a move like which makes miai to connect to either side. If b tries hard to threaten one of the split w groups something like the following could happen (just dreaming I cannot foresee all possible variations here of course...).

Whilst I applaud your creativity, this is bonkers. gostudent's hane is a much better feeling (take a liberty of black's empty triangle, make your stones stronger, reduce eyespace). Black just stops connection on one side, white thinly connects the other (still problem at a/b later) and then cuts and white can't keep it all together.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 6 a 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

schawipp wrote:Update: I have not tested thoroughly and EdLee's variation is probably good enough.

Not just good enough, but better.

gostudent · Post by **gostudent** » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:51 pm

EdLee wrote:
gostudent wrote:
$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 7 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 4 8 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 5 7 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 6 4 8 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White plays at a cannot save the two white stone because of snapback
No. Read again and find the correct reason W(a) fails.

I am thinking about the following sequence, and white cannot connect at 2 because black can simply take at a. And B6 is at 2 to capture the 3 white stones. Then b and the key point of the three stones would be miai.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gostudent · Post by **gostudent** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:02 am

EdLee wrote:How do you feel about this ?
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
W gets a lot of cash, and B has a heavy group.

Thanks. It is a fairly good result for white.

A lesson for me here is that, after W1 and B2, the 3-3 point becomes so vital that white has to take it -- letting black play there would almost surely lead to black life. So I have to allow black to escape. Since the running group is heavy, even though I might not be able to kill it, I should get plenty in return. On the other hand, if I insist on surrounding, after black plays at 3-3 and makes life, I would be in a very bad situation with two weak groups.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:48 am

gostudent wrote:I am thinking about the following sequence...
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Hi GoStudent,

Yes, we knew what you were thinking.

Please read again. You're still missing something very basic.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:58 am

schawipp wrote:Another possible variation...
$$
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . y 5 O x 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . y 5 O x 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

( Diagram edited for clarity. )

Hi schawipp,

Putting aside

(please see Uberdude's comments about it),
the

above is a common mistake.

If B wants to wedge

(x), then B should play it directly,
without the exchange [

-

(y) ] which gives W a very nice ponnuki.
If

(x) directly, W cannot get the nice ponnuki shape in your variation.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:02 am

gostudent wrote:A lesson for me here is that, after W1 and B2, the 3-3 point becomes so vital that white has to take it -- letting black play there would almost surely lead to black life. So I have to allow black to escape. Since the running group is heavy, even though I might not be able to kill it, I should get plenty in return. On the other hand, if I insist on surrounding, after black plays at 3-3 and makes life, I would be in a very bad situation with two weak groups.

I wouldn't say very bad, like this is also playable for white. You are cut, but neither group is particularly weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . O X . 4 6 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |[/go]

In fact when you let black escape I want to press black down at 5 (rather than backing off at 8 which might be good enough but I want to play as severely as possible) but then it gets rather complicated, I didn't finish reading who is overplaying here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 O X . 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 8 7 O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If black turns white is plenty happy with the jump:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O X . 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:23 am

Thanks EdLee and Uberdude for the corrections! I have not yet encountered black's original response (the empty triangle) but if that happens now, I should know what to do!

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:32 am

Btw, if you hane first the empty triangle is actually a strong move, better than crawling at a (Of course you usually don't want to kick and then tenuki, but maybe the tenuki was actually a pincer around b).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , b . . O 3 X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gostudent · Post by **gostudent** » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:31 pm

EdLee wrote:
gostudent wrote:I am thinking about the following sequence...
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Hi GoStudent,

Yes, we knew what you were thinking.
Please read again. You're still missing something very basic.

Do you mean the following sequence?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 3 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

and then either

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O 4 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X O 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 6 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:48 am

gostudent wrote:Do you mean the following sequence?
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

No. No throw-in. No snapback.

oca · Post by **oca** » Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:11 am

EdLee wrote:
gostudent wrote:I am thinking about the following sequence...
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 3 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O X b | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X 5 | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Hi GoStudent,

Yes, we knew what you were thinking.
Please read again. You're still missing something very basic.

Oups... I'm missing that too

Life In 19x19

How to respond in this case?

How to respond in this case?

Re: How to respond in this case?

Re: How to respond in this case?

Re:

Re:

Re: How to respond in this case?

Re: How to respond in this case?

Re: How to respond in this case?

Re:

Re: