#248 amatterof vs. Kirby

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:19 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Guessing right makes this analysis a little bit easier, but I need to make sure that I don't miss something now that I can focus on just this variation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A is still my choice, and I've already eliminated C because it gives Black great thickness facing the open bottom side. One thing that's worth thinking about a bit though is whether to exchange B for D4 first, before playing G3. Something like this would probably happen then:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O X . O . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both sides have awkward shape, and Black can try to claim B2 as sente, or simply play elsewhere. Comparing this to the most likely result if I play G3 directly (below) is what led me to stick with my original choice at A. In particular, the lack of a Black stone at F7 will help if/when I want to develop the upper left more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:54 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

His move is popular these days:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In-seong doesn't particularly like it, because it doesn't put much pressure on black. A lot of other joseki put pressure on black, and that's more of his style. White's move is more like negotiation.

For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . 6 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, white is calm, and gets a position on both sides. Black gets some easy territory in what used to be white's corner.

But there's no pressure to either side. That's why it's like negotiation - black can have the corner, white can have the sides.

White might try to take away black's base, in which case, black can pressure white's stones:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another popular option is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, black gets the corner, and white can get groups on the sides. This time, though, white doesn't have a complete base on the left side. If white defends the left, black can pressure the bottom, and vice versa:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sometimes white plays diagonally, which is also flexible:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014.

I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games.

And why not? It looks fun.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:33 pm

Kirby wrote:
$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which brings us to what I played. I haven't played this move much, but I know it's an option. I learned some variations at the US Go Congress in 2014.

I haven't had much experience in playing these variations, though, so I hope to use this game as a way to practice it, and solidify it into my tool belt as a possible option in my games.

And why not? It looks fun.

My understanding is that this line has since been discarded as disadvantageous for black, but I don't recall the refutation, unfortunately. Fun is always a good reason to play something, though.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:26 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hmm, Black's move is a strong one, and I do not know the variations from here very well at all. Lots of candidate moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . c b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . e , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A - I seem to recall that one of the few times I'd seen Black's move in professional play, the response was at A. This avoids helping Black fix any weaknesses in shape, while continuing to develop the left side. That said, I don't know the continuations and the few I played out all seemed good for Black.
B - I know this is a mistake. Black simply descends to C5 and White ends up with two weak groups with bad shape separated by a solid Black one.
C - My choice. More below
D - I briefly checked this idea, because in some variations, Black kicks at C5 and White extends up to D. Here, however, it seems out of order.
E - This is a naked grab for the corner, I should at least give Black the option of allowing me to continue with my original plan before abandoning it.

Between A and C, I think it's better for me to trust my own reading and analysis instead of blindly following a vague recollection of a pro game. The worst case is that I (in embarrassingly public fashion) learn something interesting about this joseki. Most of my analysis of C focused on what happens if Black plays the cross-cut and White extends.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, Black has a number of options, and I have an SGF file that explores these and Black's other responses for 1 that I'll try to upload once I'm back from holiday travel.
In some variations, Black does succeed in preventing White from playing on both sides, but White gets a solid corner as compensation. The part that worries me is that in some variations Black comes close to being able to seal White into the corner, which would be the exact opposite of my plan. Usually this seems to involve a well-timed Black play at E3, so I'll need to be careful about that.

Here goes nothing...

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:34 am

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:59 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cm11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:14 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

At this point, I can think of a bunch of good things to say about B5. It follows the principle of extending from a cross-cut, and it takes what is a vital point in Black's shape in the original variations I expected. To me, it feels like the only real move from a shape perspective. On the other hand, this is a move that starts to signal a shift towards taking the corner instead of playing on the outside.

Other possible moves:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If I saw a trap coming and a way for Black to capture the two white stones or seal White in, playing at C (and then A) would probably be my escape path. I could build a reasonably strong group on the left, and then hope to keep the bottom side too weak (D2 and M3 feel miai-ish). Playing at A directly would be another option. This would give Black a bit more strength to the middle, but give me a bit more option to help the bottom.

Playing at B feels like a way to revert this situation to something much more closely approximating my originally rejected play of :w8:

at C4. After Black connects (at C), then White C4 and Black D4 looks like the old joseki shape.

Hopefully after Black's next move, I'll know whether I've made a mistake. I feel like I have good responses to C4 (C5) and D4 (D2), but a Black play at C5 still seems a bit tricky to me. Time to learn something...

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:25 am

I've been thinking about a Black play at C5 a bit more, and I'm now less concerned about it. Instead, I think it gives me a chance to continue with my plan of playing on both sides.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O a . O . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black plays 17 at A, I can extend to M3. I would judge this to be a reasonably good result for White. Although the bottom-side group is bit weak near all that Black thickness, there is also a ton of aji left in D3 that I think make things fine for me.
If Black plays 17 at B, a White move at C leaves the Black group floating, and I think that I would be able to get enough profit from pressuring these (fairly heavy) stones that I would also consider this a reasonably good result for White.
Because a White play at C removes so much of Black's eye-space, I kept trying to figure out ways to play this before coming back to capture with :w14:

(at B8). However, the results I came up with after Black took B8 tended to leave White very low and Black with good thickness.

I also looked a bit more at the other Black plays I mentioned before (C4 and D4). I didn't find anything new for D4, but for C4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had originally looked at playing A, but now I'm leaning more towards B. A leaves the left side rock solid, white Black gets a more stable group (after Black E3) and White extends to M3. B leaves the Black group floating a bit more, but he can build more thickness by pressing on the left side. There are also ways to get to this line if Black begins with D4. (If Black plays 3 at A, White seems to get excellent outside thickness.)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:58 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is what I get for playing a joseki I don't know. I think what he played is supposed to be a mistake, but I don't know how to get a great result - maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

Anyway, I'm not familiar with this variation, so I'm in unfamiliar territory.

I know this was one of the variations that we talked about at US Go Congress:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 C O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which certainly seems nice for black to me. And if I recall, some pros played this way as white. So if he deviated from this, I should be able to find a result that I like at least as good as this for black.

I'm not quite finding it.

Since he didn't atari, I'm inclined to play on that side myself:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But he gets so much territory if he simply bumps after that:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Since this move is a good move for him in this sequence, I'll take it first.

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 1:57 pm

Hope you had a happy holiday!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I've already analyzed this response from Black pretty extensively. To be sure, I re-examined those lines and still couldn't find any way that Black can capture the B5/B6 stones. What seems more likely at this point, though, is that Black will succeed in establishing a reasonably strong group on the left side, as opposed to my plan to play on both sides. I see a couple of possible continuations from here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Continuation A $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 2 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 5 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Continuation B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 2 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 3 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Continuation C $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Continuations A and B are similar, but Continuation B seems somewhat better for Black and if I had to guess, this will be where Kirby is heading. Unlike in A, Continuation B ends with Black having sente. The price for this is that, unlike in A, there is still tons of aji left in the White C7 stone. However, with an approach in the shaded area, Black may be able to neutralize some of this aji. (I also need to be careful to remember that a White ladder breaker around K16 might be ignored. If I try to move out the C7 stone, Black could simply play D9 and squeeze White while building his wall.)

Continuation C is still possible, and seems to be the only way I still get to play on both sides. I don't know whether Black would play 5 or something else, but he seems to need to do something to help out the heavy group he has created in this line. Even then, a simple White response at G5 looks powerful. That's why I think Continuation B is the most likely.

I also briefly reconsidered play at B8, but still have decided I don't like this result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O 3 . O . . 4 . 5 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Black stone at O5 just works too well, pressing White into Black's thickness in a textbook attack. So, D2 it is! Hopefully I'm not missing some tesuji somewhere to capture the B5/B6 stones...

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:39 pm

With the options I'm currently considering, it looks like white will get a good chunk of corner territory here.

One idea is to play atari on the side that he didn't. In the variation I showed earlier, after the cut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 6 C O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White got ponnuki with :w2:

, and black got corner. With his moves, he is taking corner, so I can try to get ponnuki on outside, too:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

if he insists on corner territory...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 6 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I get two stones, which is nice influence. The bad part, is that he gets sente, and can play ladder breaker. If I answer to take the two stones, he gets *another* move. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X C C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . O X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Basically, he got the corner, plus two free moves up on top... Seems good for white.

I thought for awhile, and maybe I can omit the atari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

white might keep chasing, but eventually, must come back to take the corner territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Still, he can play ladder breaker, but this time, I get ponnuki in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . 4 X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now it's my turn, so it's big. But what if he doesn't immediately take the corner?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I guess that's fine...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 8 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . C X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What would I do, then?

Backing up, I could consider protecting corner first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But this is worse than the pattern I knew:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . W 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 C O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So... Tricky. Nothing seems completely satisfying, yet. Let's see if I can come up with something better.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:43 pm

Happy Holidays. I thought I posted it here, too, but I guess that was only the other game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:49 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:42 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amatterof · Post by **amatterof** » Tue Dec 30, 2014 6:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . W X O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

#248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby

Re: #248 amatterof vs. Kirby