Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post your games here for other members to critique your play.
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post by Bill Spight »

Fedya wrote:There are a lot of cooments here to digest, so I'm likely going to be posting multiple replies here and coming back to some of the comments farther down the thread later in the day.

DrStraw asked:
Why dwell so much on territory?
I thought the point of the game was to get more territory than your opponent.
Well, yes, but as Takagawa said, it is very difficult to make territory. By which he meant that if you develop rapidly enough, you do not make territory. You make territory as a result of local fights or skirmishes. The kyu disease is to try to make sure territory early in the game and fall behind in development.
Ed Lee wrote:
:w10: this connect makes your group very heavy.
I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth.
The three stones are heavy because they do not have eye potential, and, since they form a unit, it is not easy to throw them away. That would be true if you made a hanging connection (tiger's mouth), as well. It is much easier to throw two stones away than three, which is why tenuki is a good idea at this point. Besides, you keep sente. :)

One of the things that I've hoped I can get out of a review is something that will enable me to figure out what to do in that next game, when the principles are more or less the same, but the position is different enough that you can't just follow the principles by rote. One of the things I think about when I'm playing and I'm in a position where I don't know what to do, is to ask myself what strong players would suggest I should do.
That is not a bad idea. :)
Unsurprisingly, the answers aren't as good as what strong players actually play themselves. :oops:
Don't be so quick to judge. :) For instance, you played the invasion at :w52: because of your thickness on the left side. That was a pretty good play. :) You did not get a good result from it for two reasons. First, at :w54: you did not play the descent to the second line, which would have threatened the bottom left corner, and your failure to play the descent allowed Black to give you bad shape. Second, you made an unnecessary defensive play at :w62:, a play which you yourself recognized as bad. You could have used your thickness not only to take away a few potential points from Black on the bottom side, but also to build something of your own in the bottom right quadrant.

OC, you will always make errors. We all do. :) But as you get better you will make different errors. ;) The fact that you may make errors later on does not detract from the good plays that you do make.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
User avatar
Fedya
Lives in gote
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:21 pm
Rank: 6-7k KGS
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re: Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post by Fedya »

Quantumf wrote:
Move 40 - I would say you are playing too close to black's thickness, and stones here are at best passes, but more likely to become problems for you later.

41-42 - black made a mistake and helps you
How is 40 a mistake? As I commented, I thought that the twho stones in the middle would work well with the one in the corner. It should also reduce what Black can get with his formation. It's not as though I can play something around D7 either, because if I had done that you would be calling it a mistake for the same reason Ed Lee called Black 15 a mistake.
120: despite the atari, W cut at q2 is working: read it out.
I would never have considered R2. When I first read it out prior to playing 116, I was planning to atari with R3 and then S4, and only noticed with more stones on the board that letting Black play Q4 would put two of my stones in atari and screw up that plan.

Yes, I'm trying to read; it's just that I have a distressing tendency to miss ataris when visualizing stones on the board and only notice them when more stones are actually on the board.
User avatar
Fedya
Lives in gote
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:21 pm
Rank: 6-7k KGS
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re:

Post by Fedya »

EdLee wrote:
I specifically played this connect instead of the tiger mouth because in a previously game I posted here, I played the tiger mouth, and was told I should just connect directly. So now I have to learn when one should play the direct connect and when one should play the tiger mouth.
Hi Fedya, do you still have access to the other thread and post, about your solid connect ?
I'm pretty certain it's one of the two previous games I posted here, which would be last March and last November, although just searching for threads I started in this subforum should bring them up.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Fedya wrote:How is :w40: a mistake?
...
It's not as though I can play something around D7 either, because if I had done that you would be calling it a mistake for the same reason Ed Lee called Black 15 a mistake.
Hi Fedya,
There's a pattern here, as fodder for thought:
  • I also thought :w40: was off. Now, two others have voiced a similar opinion,
    including Bill (high dan level). It is not easy to explain why :w40: is off.
    Many moves are of this nature. I also believe this is not your biggest
    problem at this level, and I also was not sure about :w40: being off
    (until Bill's note), so I didn't comment on it.
    It would just confuse you more, which is exactly what's happening.
    ( In other words, many moves of this nature need not be mentioned
    at this level, because they'll just confuse people more. )
  • If you think playing :w40: at D7 is the same as :b15: ,
    this is one problem in your understanding right now:
    it's the same reason you're confused about :w10: .
    The :b15: shape is completely different to :w40: at D7.
    This is so fundamentally important, it's worth a repeat:
    The :b15: shape is completely different to :w40: at D7.
    So, no, quantumf would not call :w40: at D7 a mistake,
    and if he did, it would not be for the same reason as :b15: .
    Every stone can make a difference.
    Repeat: Every stone can make a difference.
    I kind of know how you feel, because I was also there around 2005.
    10 years ago, I would also have confused :b15: with
    :w40: at D7. I think this took about 3 years to fix, for me. :)
Based on this, I can make a guess about your other recently posted game,
and its relation to :w10: -- little to no relationship.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Fedya wrote:...enable me to figure out what to do in that next game, when the principles are more or less the same,
but the position is different enough that you can't just follow the principles by rote.
Hi Fedya,
This is probably one of the first things we learn, when we first start:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation A
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation C
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation D -- re: :b15:
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . X . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . O . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Variation E -- re: :w40: at D7
$$-----------------------
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . X . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | |[/go]
  • At these levels, we understand some differences among Variations A, B, and C.
    We know to look all the way across the board !
    But somehow, in Variations D and E, we confuse :b1: with :b2: .
    When there are important enemy and friendly stones so close to us ! :)
    -- I was here, around 10 years ago. :)
  • The keywords are in "more or less" and "different".
  • Perhaps the most important: these are not the kind of mistakes that cost you your games. :)
User avatar
quantumf
Lives in sente
Posts: 844
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
Has thanked: 180 times
Been thanked: 151 times

Re: Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post by quantumf »

The subtleties of why 40 is wrong are difficult to articulate, and are probably beyond me. I described it as too close to black's thickness, while Bill described it as an overplay. It's probably both, and more.

From my experience, I know that black is going to place a stone somewhere in the middle of that space between 40 and the corner. While I would not expect my stones around 40 to get into trouble any time soon, I also know that because of black's excellent thickness above, my stones will not be able to attack black's invading stones particularly aggressively. I would thus not expect a particularly great result, and ultimately, my stones may end up weak, or at best only getting a couple of points. I would thus look to play a move that combines limiting the power of black's influence, and also developing my position in some way (admittedly, your move 40 has at least partly the same intention).

I'm not sure where I would play, many moves are available. D7 would not be my personal choice, given how hopeless it is in terms of the corner, or my lack of confidence in building significant influence to the right, what with the O3 stone there, but I'm sure it's a viable option. Personally I think C8 is fine, and I think Bill recommended it as one of your earlier moves. Probably anything in the vicinity is playable.

My guess about why Bill called it an overplay is that it's a move that only works if your opponent ignores it - 40 combined with a white move around c7/d7 would be very nice.

Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post by Uberdude »

I wouldn't worry about move 40, it's fine for a 7k and fine for a 1k.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

quantumf wrote:Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.
Hi quantum, no, please see post 19. And Uber's post 22.
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Fedya wrote:I'm pretty certain it's one of the two previous games I posted here, which would be last March and last November
I didn't see the move in these -- did I miss it ?

Jan, 2015 game

Nov, 2014 game

If you could find the thread and the move, it would be helpful to compare it with :w10: . :)
User avatar
quantumf
Lives in sente
Posts: 844
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
Has thanked: 180 times
Been thanked: 151 times

Re: Not enough room to post what went wrong

Post by quantumf »

Uberdude wrote:I wouldn't worry about move 40, it's fine for a 7k and fine for a 1k.
Am I to conclude from this, by induction, that it's OK at 5d? If a move is bad, and it can be articulated why, then at any level it's potentially worth knowing, even if you lack the tactical expertise or whole board judgement (or whatever) to punish it appropriately. I appreciate that there is a concern that we should help Fedya focus on the biggest flaws, and I agree, 40 is far from the biggest flaw, but the whole forum can benefit from the discussion. So if in fact 40 is not an error, then I'd be grateful in some assistance in understanding why my impression (and explanation) is flawed.
User avatar
quantumf
Lives in sente
Posts: 844
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:36 pm
Rank: 3d
GD Posts: 422
KGS: komi
Has thanked: 180 times
Been thanked: 151 times

Re:

Post by quantumf »

EdLee wrote:
quantumf wrote:Ed, it may be worth describing why you think 15 is a mistake.
Hi quantum, no, please see post 19. And Uber's post 22.
Do you mean 20? I missed that. Ed, in general, I think you're making excessive use of the hide tag. I don't get why you use it for what appear to be entirely on topic comments. Are you trying to mitigate the forum's performance problems?
schawipp
Lives in gote
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:13 am
Rank: EGF 4k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 75 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re:

Post by schawipp »

EdLee wrote:
If you could find the thread and the move, it would be helpful to compare it with :w10: . :)
I guess it's move 22 in Mar, 2014 game
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi quantum, I didn't mean 20; I actually meant post 19.
I shouldn't have mentioned :b15: -- it wasn't Fedya's move anyway -- for the same reasons mentioned in post 19. :)

However, an unintended result is we find out about :w40: and Fedya's association of :w40: with :b15: --
this is very interesting (to me, since I had the same experience) .
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

schawipp,

Thanks for finding the thread and the move.

As expected, the situation with :w22: the March game is quite different from :w10: in this game.

An important point: both :w22: in the March game and :w10: in this game did NOT lose the game.
User avatar
Fedya
Lives in gote
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:21 pm
Rank: 6-7k KGS
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 139 times

Re:

Post by Fedya »

EdLee wrote:Hi quantum, I didn't mean 20; I actually meant post 19.
I shouldn't have mentioned :b15: -- it wasn't Fedya's move anyway -- for the same reasons mentioned in post 19. :)
Why shouldn't you mention when somebody's opponent made a mistake and that the person who requested the review has the chance to take advantage, even if that advantage is "only" taking a neglected big part of the board?
However, an unintended result is we find out about :w40: and Fedya's association of :w40: with :b15: --
this is very interesting (to me, since I had the same experience) .
I still don't see the difference. :scratch:
Post Reply