1d vs. 1d

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Boidhre
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Boidhre »

Bill Spight wrote:
Pippen wrote:On the 1d-4d level there are still so many mistakes, misreads, blunders that fuseki becomes almost meaningless
So true. We might as well have a computer place the first 50 moves at random and go from there.

:mrgreen:
Go960? :D
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Bill Spight »

Shaddy wrote:
Pippen wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 4 . . 6 . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'd be very happy as this Black. White doesn't have development potential; the two-space extension group there doesn't usually make many points.
Pippen wrote: I bet Remi's CS in 100 test games would get a near 50% winning/losing for black in the above position, just as in all "standard" fusekis.
I agree. I think that :b5: should be in the top left corner.
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Pippen »

skydyr wrote:As a stylistic question, at :w14: why not split again? The game move seems inconsistent.

If you were happy to play the inside approach as white here, it seems like white would have a better position by having taking the open corner at :w4: and then playing the same type of move on the bottom, or at :w6: and treating :w4: somewhat lightly. If you weren't happy to play it that way, what made it so much better 10 moves later?
I never split twice since that seems to be too slow.

@bill:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . 4 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

To me that looks worse for Black, because White has tons of options here, e.g. 'a', developing very smoothly and with a lot of possibilities for later.

By the way: I found 1 pro game in that opening category that look split fusekish (only different move order):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . 6 . . 8 . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
p.s. I recommend this database with ~70.000 pro games, free on the internet: http://ps.waltheri.net/
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Bill Spight »

Pippen wrote:@bill:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . 4 . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

To me that looks worse for Black, because White has tons of options here, e.g. 'a', developing very smoothly and with a lot of possibilities for later.
Do you really think that :b5: is the right play for Black in the top left corner?
Pippen wrote:By the way: I found 1 pro game in that opening category that look split fusekish (only different move order):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . 6 . . 8 . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
It seems to me that that bolsters the idea that :b5: should be in the top left corner when :w4: is a wedge on the bottom side.
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Pippen »

Quite an ordinary invasion, but I always struggle to know how to continue (except to cut with the next black stone at F4). Can somebody show me the best sequence of 5-10 moves available for Black and White and then judge who's better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O 0 . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 . 9 O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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topazg
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by topazg »

Doesn't look like an ordinary invasion to me with that left side? Surely this is better for Black? (or maybe :b3: at "a" or something, but the 3-3 feels like the wrong idea, giving White that wall facing up the left side)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Boidhre
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Boidhre »

Why not :b1: here?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Looks much more reasonable than the invasion to me. C3 and D8 are miai for you.

/2c
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Pippen »

I agree with you, 1 would have been better. But then: IF you invade, what's the sequence one should play? (see my post before this)
Uberdude
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Uberdude »

Probably start at b6 to ask white if he wants to descend or hane to see if you need to live in gote or not. Then you can cut to make complications but with k4 already the fight is quite easy for white. I too prefer the slide with these surroundings and later black can aim at m3.
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Bill Spight »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Here is my vote. :)
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by Bill Spight »

Pippen wrote:But then: IF you invade, what's the sequence one should play? (see my post before this)
First, put on your best white kimono, spread out a clean white sheet and kneel in the middle. Then, take out your short sword. . . . I guess you know the rest. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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ez4u
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Re: 1d vs. 1d

Post by ez4u »

I think the game below is interesting in light of what is currently being discussed. I particularly like to contemplate the difference between 12 and 21 in light of 9 versus 18 and the width of the gap between 6 and 8 versus that between 7 and 17. Go is a game of infinite subtleties...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 Takagawa (white) - Fujisawa Hideyuki; 6th Tokyo Shinbun Cup; 1961-11-02
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X . 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Takagawa (white) - Fujisawa Hideyuki; 6th Tokyo Shinbun Cup; 1961-11-02
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . X . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . O . X . X . . . , . . . . . O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 0 . . . . . O . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 8 . 3 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But we are by no means a one-trick pony... :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Fujisawa Hideyuki (white) - Hashimoto Shoji; 39th Oza; 1991-08-22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 1 . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 9 7 5 3 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 4 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Or even a two-trick pony... :rambo:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Pak Cheon-sang (white) - Wang Xi; 13th Samsung Cup; 2008-09-03
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 7 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 . 9 O . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O 0 . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29 Pak Cheon-sang (white) - Wang Xi; 13th Samsung Cup; 2008-09-03
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X 3 X O . 2 . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As always, YMMV! :salute:
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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