His 16 was wrong, but your 17 wasn't the best answer either. This is one of the favourite topics on this forum. viewtopic.php?p=161730#p161730 is the first of my posts explaining why hane rather descend is best, and I managed to convince Alakazam (a mid-dan). Some earlier posts in that thread link to older threads on the same topic. Of course your opponent was weak and the block is no good as your cut crushes him, but against better opponents the descend isn't as good as the hane if your opponent realizes blocking will fail.

Just to inform Uberdude,I learned this from
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7273

Lecture 3 explains it. The writer claims it is taken from a professional's lesson. Of course we shouldnt take it for granted and question the knowledge. I will check the debate when i go home, i am out right now.

I am copy pasting the sgf text. I will also upload the games knotwilg when i go home, thank you for the notice!

Files attached 1

Files attached-2

I browsed through the games and will post analyses later but overall, I get the following impression:

In the opening and early middle game you have a good sense of direction and apply proper technique. You also have a good mastery of life and death.

On the other hand, when you get into close combat, you keep harrassing groups from too close by, and push the opponent through small gaps, thereby reinforcing him. Also you don't always count the score and harden a lost game instead of trying to reverse it.

Try maintaining your concentration throughout the game:

- who's ahead
- where are the weak groups
- where are the big points

And avoid bad techniques like pushing through small gaps (look up this term at SL)

Thank you for you comments Knotwilg, i'll try keep my calm in close fights and also read sensei.

@uberdude if Black plays A at below sequence, wouldn't he have the upper hand? Maybe the gain is hard for me to understand because i'm sdk.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . a . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . X O . . |
$$ . X . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

@PlaySlow: I don't follow your reasoning. If you think black's hane 1 is a mistake and white's 2 descent the correct punishment, then after some more reasonable moves from both sides it should be good for white, but you are now saying you think it is good for Black if he plays a.

So there are a few issues here. Firstly, are you correct that with a next black is good? I think not; one reason white can split at n4 later. However with the following thick block black could be adequate, if not good (could omit 5/6, depends on ladders).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . 7 . X O . . |
$$ . X . O 5 X O . . |
$$ . . . . 6 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

Compare this to if white plays the hane and black connects (if he blocks and connects then white clamps and has a good result if black connects and a good fight if he descends, see the linked threads), allowing white to link up with 4 to the left of 2 below, rather than to the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . c . 3 1 . . |
$$ . . . a . X O . . |
$$ . X . O . X O . . |
$$ . . . . 4 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

Black can no longer thickly connect to the pincer stone here, a is far less effective. It's not all gain for no pain though, as white's corner is a bit weaker so black has better endgame there, the descent to s5 has a better follow-up etc, but usually that will be less important than a not connecting well / white being able to jump out to c.

Regarding that linked lovelove lesson 3, he hardly explains it, just states it. It's worth noting that series is aimed for kyu players, so will give simple rather than correct answers. As for pros saying descend rather than hane, in the linked thread someone said Mingjiu Jiang 7p said that (and other pros saying hane not descend). I believe this is an example of pro thinking changing, and the descend being the accepted move 10+ years ago. Pros like Mingjiu in the West may not have caught up to the latest thinking. As for Kim SeongRyong (the source of lovelove's posts) I would expect him to know better, so it's probably the kyu simplification here. It's worth noting that it's usually ddk's who play the bad hane and they usually block rather than sensibly connect so assuming your opponent is that sort of mistake-making ddk descend can actually work well, but I'm interested in what is the best move against a 9p such as Cho Chikun. Cho has actually played that hane in an open board, and in that case his opponent Otake Hideo 9p did play the hane, way back in 1989 (http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/16567/). When Cho played the hane against Rin Kaiho 9p with supporting stones nearby in 1986 Rin descended rather than hane because those supporting stones meant the fight after the clamp and descend would not be favourable as it usually is (http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/9336/).

Thank you for your detailed explanation Uberdude, now it's more clear! I would try hane in my games now; the situation occurs frequently.

Detailed review of 1 game

Game 2

Game 3: a very low level game. I would like to discuss moves like 123 where you play from thickness, i.o towards it, but there are so many nonsensical moves in this game. Somehow White still wins it after an initial annihilation.

I can only say: play seriously, if you want to improve. This game is way below your level.


For what it's worth:

Game 4:

A game of much higher quality. There is a pattern

- good opening
- often good L&D skills
- tendency to play from thickness, not away from thickness

So when in doubt, play far far away from strong stones

Thank you very much for your detailed reviews Knotwilg!

The thing about the 3rd game is that i was too much demoralized because of the game against 6 kyu. Otherwise I always try to play my games (at least which i post here) in a full concentration with my classical music on - cell phones off manner. But i feel to have lack of mid game fighting knowledge or i just make 20 kyu reading mistakes (for example against 6 kyu, right side of the board)..
I generally try to tenuki in the beginning if I feel my groups are safe but in the mid game i always try to extend from some of my groups, which result in playing from my strong groups.
I will try to play away from thickness in mid game from now on & also try to read the critical situations better. To be honest I did not read all of the sequences in some L&D situations and because of that games are over from that point (eg.game 3, lower left and right side). Since the tournament games will be much longer (1 hr each + 25move/10min byo yomi) than my usual games, i aim to use all the time I got. This saturday i'll try to play longer games or more amount of games to develop some game fitness.

Finally I was too afraid playing ranked games for a long amount of time, maybe my poor mid game fighting or getting nervous in game is a result of that. At least I am overcoming that:)

Another 2 games in a long Starbucks session after work. It was very frustrating to lose games to stupid reading mistakes in byo yomi.. I feel i can be 4-5 kyu but keep making 20 kyu mistakes and losing many games. It's price of playing less games i think. I add "keep an eye on your weak groups" to the "pay attention in games" list.

A couple of quick comments on game 2. Your 11 is misplaced at Q14. It is too close to your two strong stones in the corner and too far from your one weak stone at Q10. It should be one space further at Q13. This is a very well-known shape that often arises in the Kobayashi fuseki. Remember it!

At 53 you ask where to play next. I think your 'A' at P7 is the natural move. Even if these stones can not be killed, they can be harassed. White needs to justify giving up the top right by finding effective use for the center thickness. If Black prevents that while securing the right-side stones, White will have a difficult time.

Black 59 is joseki and the normal follow-up when White ignores the approach. However, it and 61 allow White to attempt to make sense out of what has happened so far. I think that something like the one-space jump to F5 would have been interesting. If White answers in the corner and Black plays K4, I think Black would be comfortable. If White pincered and Black could wrap around the corner from the outside, it would reduce White's chances.

Of course at 103, Black should capture the three stones in a ladder with D12. Otherwise what was the point of 101?

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Some comments on game 1:

Two more games played, but did not try as hard as i can to read, so i'm not satisfied with myself.
I somehow gain huge advantages in the beginning of the game but keeping losing them somehow. My questions and comments are inside the sgfs.

Hi PlaySlow,

Game v. mindful:

( Re: your notes ) Alternate way to view the situation:
if is not good as you said ( and I agree with you ),
then B already punished himself with --
why do you have to do anything extra about it ?
Just block at B18. If he continues to hane B19,
then just connect at B17 -- his and B19 don't help him gain an eye --
his entire group is still unsettled.
( That's why J17 directly is a joseki move for B. )
Or, you can tenuki ( if you can handle the UL corner fight ).

If B (B17+D17) ataris and then A17,
then B's weak group is almost settled,
while you may end up with two unsettled groups.
So his initial not-so-good move could end up with a good result, thanks to your help.

H18.

- Nice.

Re: your notes: what influence ?

Re: .

Does not fix his weakness at H3.

H3 is possible.

K3.

o3.

Kind of your equivalent of his .

The result up to is a disaster for W --
you made less than 7 points at the bottom,
but made him very strong, and killed your own corner.
I feel whatever lead you had by , not only did you give it all back to B,
but you lost even more by .
The game is difficult for W now.

Figuring out what went wrong between and
is worth this game, I feel.