I'm currently reading 'Relentless' from GoGameGuru and it's great. The terminology all seems very natural and familiar to me, until I came across the discussion of the common opening shape for black below. They call it The Parallel Opening. The normal name for this I have come across is the Orthodox Opening (http://senseis.xmp.net/?OrthodoxFuseki), which may have been coined by Charles Matthews on SL. Parallel Opening to me means one in which white and black each take one side of the board with the first 4 corner moves (usually black on the right and white on the left, see http://senseis.xmp.net/?ParallelFuseki) as opposed to a diagonal (tasuki) opening. So the orthodox is indeed a parallel opening, but a subclass of that broad category and not the parallel opening. Do other people share my terminology, or has anyone come across parallel opening for this shape? Maybe it's called that in Korean, or they call it parallel down under?
Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
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Uberdude
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Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
Last edited by Uberdude on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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gowan
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
I, too, think "orthodox" fuseki was coined by Charles Matthews, and it may not have much usage outside of SL and Matthews's writings. This pattern is included in the section on parallel fuseki in Rin Kaiho's Basic Fuseki Dictionary, without any particular name. Parallel fuseki, on the other hand, is widely used. Diagonal fuseki is tasuki fuseki in Japanese (http://senseis.xmp.net/?TasukiFuseki) and parallel is heikou fuseki. Heikou in Japanese is not specific to go, having the meaning of parallel in general use.
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Uberdude
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
It's probably used more by my generation/cohort of players, who learnt in the last decade from SL and the KGS teaching ladder.gowan wrote:I, too, think "orthodox" fuseki was coined by Charles Matthews, and it may not have much usage outside of SL and Matthews's writings.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
How about the parallax fuseki?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
On a more serious note, I would not call it the parallel opening, but a parallel opening.
Parallel openings became popular after the widespread adoption of komi.
Parallel openings became popular after the widespread adoption of komi.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
The fuseki volume of the Nihon-Kiin small encyclopedia series just refers to it as "Star point and perpendicular 3-4 point, corner enclosure" with no special name attached. It appears there is no universally accepted name, though I agree that the Parallel fuseki isn't a good choice.
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
In contrast to openings like "Mini-Chinese", "Chinese", and "Kobayashi", I've heard some variation in the nomenclature for this fuseki. Of course, “Orthodox” is probably the most popular name used in English, probably due in part to Senseis Library. Inseong has called it the “1-3-5” opening, but I think that this name doesn’t carry a special meaning (just indicating the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd black moves).
In Korean, sometimes people just use a name to describe the position. For example, the guy in this video calls it the “Star-point and 3-4 Defense” opening.
Like I said above, some of the other popular openings, like “Chinese”, “Mini-Chinese”, and “Kobayashi” have much more universal names, which are used by pretty much everyone.
In Korean, sometimes people just use a name to describe the position. For example, the guy in this video calls it the “Star-point and 3-4 Defense” opening.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
I also learned "orthodox fuseki" from SL. I think if you called it the star point and shimari fuseki, or star point and enclosure, most people would guess what you meant.
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gowan
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
In Rin Kaiho's fuseki dictionary the following patterns are all called parallel fuseki:
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) It seems that any fuseki with both sides starting with adjacent corner moves, or transposing into that, could be called "parallel" fuseki.
(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) It seems that any fuseki with both sides starting with adjacent corner moves, or transposing into that, could be called "parallel" fuseki.
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
Wow. That would be an opening where you see the stones at a point where they actually aren't... that would be epic. The 3-4 displacement fuseki, where the stone actually is located at 6-8Bill Spight wrote:How about the parallax fuseki?
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
To me, there are two basic types of fuseki: parallel and cross-cut. Yes, I would call the orthodox, as well as sanrensei and the chinese all parallel openings.
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Re: Orthodox or Parallel Opening?
For obvious reasons it is Japan that has determined the main taxonomy. But there is no set standard, and usage also varies greatly between pros and amateurs. Amateurs, who after all play for fun, experiment more and have evolved many names for openings that allude to a fellow amateur who plays it often (e.g. Hiami's Delta) or that catch their interest (e.g. Cho U's Special). Go journalists can also season the mixture (e.g. the Apollo Opening, named after the moonshot).
But even with more normal openings amateurs tend to use classifications that are of more interest or value to themselves (e.g. takamoku fusekis).
Pros likewise classify openings according to their own needs and, as you would expect, they are rather more subtle. E.g. branching points loom large - who gets the next move that determines the subsequent shape of the game (by way of an example in crude terms, if Black chooses to play three moves on one side, White gets control of the next branching point).
Most fuseki books start with the parallel openings (or perhaps better for some: side-by-side openings). More strictly the name is "parallel-type openings" as the standard Japanese among go players is 平行型布石 (this can be treated as a technical term; a non-go player might be more likely to say 平行型の布石).
The second type discussed tends to be the tasuki type: タスキ型布石. A tasuki is a cord or sash, which is often (but not necessarily) worn diagonally across the torso (e.g. the sash you get when you win a prize; but it also refers to e.g. apron strings). A possible extra reason for the name is that the Japanese for "rolling up your sleeves" (i.e. getting down to serious business) is tasuki-gake. Tasuki openings have a long reputation for promoting very early fighting.
A third common type among pros is the Shusaku Fuseki 秀策流布石. This refers to openings where Black starts in three consecutive corners, and if these are komokus the opening is called a 1-3-5 opening. It is a matter of debate whether a Shusaku fuseki is one that simply begins with three Black moves in three corners (this is the usual sense nowadays, though) or whether you have to add Shusaku's Kosumi for Black 7 to three komokus.
All other fusekis in older books tend to be grouped as Miscellaneous fusekis 混合型布石. However, more recent books have to deal with popular ideas such as the Chinese-style and early probes, and so classification is now in flux. In addition, some writers like to make a broad distinction between hoshi (star-point) openings and others, and this seems to be especially common when they wish to ally discussion of josekis. In fact there is a significant trend towards joseki-isation of fuseki - long lines of analysis stemming from discussion of the popular josekis used in a particular fuseki.
As to the so-called Orthodox Opening, I don't recall this term being used in Japanese, and if it were I'd expect it to be taken to refer (at least until very recent times) to the Shusaki fusekis.
One other reason for possibly rejecting the SL usage of the term is that pros make a distinction, when discussing parallel openings with that resulting shape, between the version that starts with the komoku (called Black shimari and hoshi 黒のシマリと星) and the one that begins with hoshi (Black hoshi and shimari 黒の星とシマリ). The point, for them, is that Black's choice of order alters White's options, and thus the branching, significantly. Or, again in crude terms, they see two openings where an amateur sees one.
Maybe we need a taxonomy of taxonomies.
It might be worth remembering though that when Charles Matthews starting putting labels on openings (it was when he was writing for MSO, not SL), he was far less concerned with the labels than with processing difficult fuseki ideas for beginners. It was groundbreaking and important work the actual content of which shouldn't be overlooked in any fuss over a name. I say that partly because I get a sense that too much amateur fuseki discussion nowadays focuses on tactical analysis, and I see increasingly less discussion of the strategic principles. This is the chessification of go. Maybe one good outcome of the AlphaGo phenomenon will to be redress the balance (now there's a fuseki-principle word you don't hear much of nowadays ...).
But even with more normal openings amateurs tend to use classifications that are of more interest or value to themselves (e.g. takamoku fusekis).
Pros likewise classify openings according to their own needs and, as you would expect, they are rather more subtle. E.g. branching points loom large - who gets the next move that determines the subsequent shape of the game (by way of an example in crude terms, if Black chooses to play three moves on one side, White gets control of the next branching point).
Most fuseki books start with the parallel openings (or perhaps better for some: side-by-side openings). More strictly the name is "parallel-type openings" as the standard Japanese among go players is 平行型布石 (this can be treated as a technical term; a non-go player might be more likely to say 平行型の布石).
The second type discussed tends to be the tasuki type: タスキ型布石. A tasuki is a cord or sash, which is often (but not necessarily) worn diagonally across the torso (e.g. the sash you get when you win a prize; but it also refers to e.g. apron strings). A possible extra reason for the name is that the Japanese for "rolling up your sleeves" (i.e. getting down to serious business) is tasuki-gake. Tasuki openings have a long reputation for promoting very early fighting.
A third common type among pros is the Shusaku Fuseki 秀策流布石. This refers to openings where Black starts in three consecutive corners, and if these are komokus the opening is called a 1-3-5 opening. It is a matter of debate whether a Shusaku fuseki is one that simply begins with three Black moves in three corners (this is the usual sense nowadays, though) or whether you have to add Shusaku's Kosumi for Black 7 to three komokus.
All other fusekis in older books tend to be grouped as Miscellaneous fusekis 混合型布石. However, more recent books have to deal with popular ideas such as the Chinese-style and early probes, and so classification is now in flux. In addition, some writers like to make a broad distinction between hoshi (star-point) openings and others, and this seems to be especially common when they wish to ally discussion of josekis. In fact there is a significant trend towards joseki-isation of fuseki - long lines of analysis stemming from discussion of the popular josekis used in a particular fuseki.
As to the so-called Orthodox Opening, I don't recall this term being used in Japanese, and if it were I'd expect it to be taken to refer (at least until very recent times) to the Shusaki fusekis.
One other reason for possibly rejecting the SL usage of the term is that pros make a distinction, when discussing parallel openings with that resulting shape, between the version that starts with the komoku (called Black shimari and hoshi 黒のシマリと星) and the one that begins with hoshi (Black hoshi and shimari 黒の星とシマリ). The point, for them, is that Black's choice of order alters White's options, and thus the branching, significantly. Or, again in crude terms, they see two openings where an amateur sees one.
Maybe we need a taxonomy of taxonomies.
It might be worth remembering though that when Charles Matthews starting putting labels on openings (it was when he was writing for MSO, not SL), he was far less concerned with the labels than with processing difficult fuseki ideas for beginners. It was groundbreaking and important work the actual content of which shouldn't be overlooked in any fuss over a name. I say that partly because I get a sense that too much amateur fuseki discussion nowadays focuses on tactical analysis, and I see increasingly less discussion of the strategic principles. This is the chessification of go. Maybe one good outcome of the AlphaGo phenomenon will to be redress the balance (now there's a fuseki-principle word you don't hear much of nowadays ...).