Progress in Black and White

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Hi Majodomo,

:b2: Perhaps some day in the near future AlphaGo can tell us, quantitatively, if it prefers a "peaceful" reply like this, or a pincer, to work with your 4 existing stones. I vote for a pincer.

:b4: Why do you want to kick W here ? If W extends up, which is basic shape, now W has an ideal extension with :w3: -- why help W ?
H3 direction is natural feeling.

:b12: Maybe push up D12 first.

:b22: Feels floaty... Maybe J16.

:b28: Maybe R9 is better preparation to exploit W's local shape.

:b46: Maybe L16.

:b56: Feels like already misreads and shape problems before here.

:w67: Given this result, it's much better to simply connect on :b56: .

:b68: Maybe just E18.

:w69: Misread ? Pass ?

:b70: W gives you a chance to fix your corner; take it: E18.
Locally, maybe K2, etc.

:b82: This gives W a chance to o2: take o2 yourself.

:b84: Standard bad habit; S6.

:b86: R2 clamp.

:b90: E18.

:black: 100 C3.

:black: 110 , :white: 101 You need to stop this kind of bad habits
(re: :b84: ) -- they add up, and are obstacles for you.

:black: 112 Strange direction; K9.

:black: 134 ?

:black: 144 Problem with your basics. Find the correct move.

:black: 166 A18.
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Re:

Post by Majordomo »

EdLee wrote:Hi Majodomo,

:b2: Perhaps some day in the near future AlphaGo can tell us, quantitatively, if it prefers a "peaceful" reply like this, or a pincer, to work with your 4 existing stones. I vote for a pincer.

:b4: Why do you want to kick W here ? If W extends up, which is basic shape, now W has an ideal extension with :w3: -- why help W ?
H3 direction is natural feeling.

:b12: Maybe push up D12 first.

:b22: Feels floaty... Maybe J16.

:b28: Maybe R9 is better preparation to exploit W's local shape.

:b46: Maybe L16.

:b56: Feels like already misreads and shape problems before here.

:w67: Given this result, it's much better to simply connect on :b56: .

:b68: Maybe just E18.

:w69: Misread ? Pass ?

:b70: W gives you a chance to fix your corner; take it: E18.
Locally, maybe K2, etc.

:b82: This gives W a chance to o2: take o2 yourself.

:b84: Standard bad habit; S6.

:b86: R2 clamp.

:b90: E18.

:black: 100 C3.

:black: 110 , :white: 101 You need to stop this kind of bad habits
(re: :b84: ) -- they add up, and are obstacles for you.

:black: 112 Strange direction; K9.

:black: 134 ?

:black: 144 Problem with your basics. Find the correct move.

:black: 166 A18.




Thanks a lot for your comments, and ach! So much that I miss or do despite knowing better - and I can't even blame fast play (since I ended in byoyomi while he still had plenty of main time). I fear I sometimes overthink myself and make things worse (not to mention become short on time).

Hmm... My (often misguided) thoughts on things:

B2 - No good answer, I just never like to pincer until I see the shape of things - but without komi and me having four stones I guess breaking the board up is to my favour.

B4 Kick - Misguided thinking, and if nothing else completely wrong order. Isn’t H3 a bit too far? I guess not since I’d welcome it if he wants to play F3 right? (My guess - H3 F3 F4 G3 G4 H4 K3?)

B12 C11 - I considered pushing up, but I think I’ve got it in my head that it requires more support to play that way? D12-E12-C11-D11-C10 just transposes into the same? Or do I play D12-E2-E11 and cut (which is where I’d like some support around me)

B22 O6 - I thought It prepared M3 more than it did.

B28 Q9 - Hmm, this kind of thing is something I should consider more. I knew that his shape was weak but when it came to it my own shape caused problems when I wanted to attack.

B46 - Just want I wanted to play - but I thought him getting O10 would become difficult for me (but I misread - if he gets liberties and plays Q11 and I can just ladder his R10 stone.

B68 - That was my instinctual play - but this was where I consciously avoided “just taking territory” - and maybe overdoing it in the process.

W69 - Surprised me, I knew there was nothing there.

B70 - Again, undervaluing securing my corner as a way to become able to play more severely later.

B82 - Ugh, here I spent to much time overthinking it.

B84 - Yeh, I’m just helping him get a good shape right?

B86 - After R2 S2 Q2 ( or Q3 S3 Q2?), isn’t he able to live on the side after S6? This is where I become too “scared” of the complications since I’m not able to read it all out and instead I play “safe” (slack, slow, timid).

B110 - Don’t push unless you cut, I should print it on my forehead (and there’s no cut here so I just let him become solid)…

B112 - I thought it would be easier to disconnect him this way, and to get more profit, but I’m not really sure what I was thinking or why I thought that way.

B134 - I “give up” - and simply remove the aji and give him the stones for free. At least I should make him work for the capture.

B144 - B17, as to why I didn’t play it? again, outthinking myself by becoming scared of complications after B17 C18 B18 D18 E18 E15 F15 E16 E17 D13 … but it is nothing, my only excuse was that I was in late byoyomi… but I need to trust my reading and play what I believe is right instead of half-assing it and getting nothing at all.

B168 - Doesn’t that lead to a Ko if he plays A15 (then B A13 him A17?)? Maybe thats good for me though.
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Post by EdLee »

:b4: Isn’t H3 a bit too far?
  • H3 is a good point for W;
  • ( :black: D4 - :black: H3 ) is the same local shape as ( :w1: - :w3: );
    if it's too far, so is W.
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Post by EdLee »

:black: 110 - Don’t push unless you cut, I should print it on my forehead
No, you shouldn't; that's a trap.
Proverbs confuse and trap many people.

  • If (push & cut) good for you, consider it;
  • If (push & cut) bad for you, maybe don't do it;
  • If (push & no cut) good for you, consider it;
  • If (push & no cut) bad for you, maybe don't do it;
  • general: If something's good for you, consider it;
  • general: If something's bad for you, maybe don't do it;

Both :b84: & :black: 110: your (push & no cut) didn't do anything good for you.

If we blindly rely on general guidelines like "Push & cut," it means we're not reading carefully -- we get into trouble.

Read, read, read.
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

I've read enough here to know you don't like these proverbs phrased like absolutes, but I've never considered them such and isn't "do something if it is good, don't if it's bad" sort of miss the point a bit? Ideally yes, but when I'm not strong enough to figure out a lot things on my own in my games, and even when I do I often don't have the time to get there. That's why I think proverbs are useful as a heuristic method for generating candidate moves, or to question those I'm considering. They aren't default or universal, but they are frequently applicable and worthy of consideration maybe? Had I even considered in the game that - Hmm, I can't cut there, should I really push and help him make shape? Well, maybe, maybe not, lets read something else as well.

However you are all to right that read read read is the only way - and the way I most frequently fail in my games I think, proverbs or not. But I'm working on that - I promise!
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Bill Spight »

Majordomo wrote:However you are all to right that read read read is the only way


Well, what do you mean by "read read read"? Do you think that we should all reinvent the wheel? ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

You guys are mean :P - Well, for my weak head I need both reading and heuristics, as I'm just playing worse and worse these days...

Two games I played today - the first I messed up by letting him cut me off and in the second well, the second is the kind of player I want to do bad things to... I know it's fair game, doesn't mean I don't detest it (mostly because I've been passing and waiting for the game to end for so long that I'm no longer paying sufficient attention).

Comments are always welcome:

First game - handicap game that went well until I started making life difficult for myself and collapsed.


Second game - I think he could have killed my top left corner there so I think I mishandled the whole split and attack him idea of descending to the 3-3 but yeh, I'm not sure - I think I got away with stuff. Anyway, I was winning until I started passing and he began his speculative play that worked out because hey the game was over right?! (he didn't agree)
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Bill Spight »

First game

:b46: Sagari to S-05. Standard attacking play. Now White has three, count'em, three weak groups and Black is strong. Can White live in the corner? Mebbe so, mebbe not. Say that he does. In gote, OC. ;) Then Black attacks the other two groups. It is like taking 4 or 5 stones from this guy. White is toast.

:b54: Strengthens White, weakens Black. Sagari to S-01. Nice things happen on the 2-1 point. :D Now Black has 4 liberties, 6 if White has to play outside liberties first. White can connect for 4 liberties. Who wins the semeai? It is well worth it to play around with this position.

If you are going to read, it helps to read the right play. :mrgreen:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

Thanks! I'm doing jump level up 2 at the moment, and it's all about descending in these semeai situations so I don't know why I missed it. Hopefully this will help hammer it into me.

So, one - probably last but who knows - game today. In this game I actively wanted to avoid complications and so played less adventurous and more in the way of "connect everything". And it worked. Against this opponent anyway. Hopefully it's down to better play on my part and not my opponent ceding me everything (though he did somewhat I guess - being on the timid side when it came to cuts and such).

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Post by EdLee »

Hi Bill,
From another recent thread:
Don't presume. Read it out.
But, OC, there is no magic bullet.

It was over 25 years before I learned the answer. ;) And not the complete answer, OC. There are almost always exceptions in go. :)
In Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights lessons, toward the end he said (paraphrasing):
Reading supercedes everything (discussed so far).
It's a combo of all of that. :)
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

I continue the trend of awful play - I don't even know what happens in most of my games anymore. From most of my games going to scoring most of them end with me resigning after throwing away everything on a misplay or just a plain oversight (see the game I lost today - move 126)

First however is one I won at least... Though I don't know - most of the game was spent with him trying to kill me and me thinking it was no way it would work but oh well... In the process of trying to kill me he ended up too thin and stretched and pretty much without any points so.






I'm also adding a second game (the first game I played today) which illustrates most of what is typical of my games these days...
I've gone over it so I have some idea of where I went wrong (move 38, 58, 86 (and everything that follows...), 112, 126 (which I can't for the life of me explain, and after which point I sort of give up but want to practice endgame)), but any pointers are of course very welcome.

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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

Aaaaand two more of the more typical games these days...

Still don't understand why I suddenly am unable to win a game against 5-6k's when I was 50-50 against 4k's before summer... I'm even doing a fair bit of Tsumego & Tesuji problems (Just started Jump Level Up 4 after finishing 3).

In the first game I mishandled my attack on his counter pincer after he jumped into my micro (mini?) Chinese. Something I note is that I seem incapable of making leaning attacks to build up sufficient strength to do what I want to do (namely cut and rip him to shreds). Also, I'm clinging to my stones and play aji-keshi and make things heavy and weak in an effort to save where I should learn to sacrifice. The top right is a great example of this... I didn't even read out properly since I was in byoyomi and just hoped he'd mess up...

In the lower left I blocked on the wrong side, letting him connect back. After which I got an undeserved result by him letting me separate him again. I missed a nice tesuji(?) at C3 in the corner as well. I think that after this the game is unfavourable but salvageable for me if I didn't manhandle my top group like I ended up doing.



The second game - This one I'm not quite so sure about. I feel like I got a good result in the first corner and at some point should have been able to make more profit by pushing him around - however I think I was too afraid of getting cut and thus didn't play as severely as I maybe should have(?). There is no excuse for 83 though, playing on auto-pilot like that and making the move in an instant - for 139 I need to play B10 if I want to even try and keep him from his eyes but it shouldn't be possible I think. My goal was to get him in a situation where he needed to make the eye in gote and thus letting me cut of a part of the tail (something like B10 C12 A12 E12 E14 F11 G11 G13 H12). In the end though, I played poor endgame - stressing like always in my last byoyomi - and then never even saw how much ahead he was.



By this rate I'll be back where I started in January.
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

Whew - a very poorly handled invasion (overplay?) ended with me killing everything when he blundered. Oh well - I'll take it but I don't feel good about it.

Comments on how to handle his group on the right side and in general what I should aim at around move 35 37 39 and 71 & 75 where I kind of felt lost as to which direction to aim at. How would you guys evaluate the board at that point and where would you try to build / attack?

EDIT: I've been using GoKibitz a bit for my recent games and I really like it - lots of stronger players giving me useful advice on my games and a neat platform. Here is a link to this game https://gokibitz.com/kifu/VyGX_YF5Z

Anyway - here is the game:
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by jeromie »

What was your intent with move 41? How did you intend to use it to make profit?

I think 41 was a fine move, but some of the follow up looks like you weren't sure how you wanted to use it. Before I comment on those moves, I'd like to hear what you were thinking.
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Re: Progress in Black and White

Post by Majordomo »

Hehe I made the exact comment in Gokibitz - I knew I needed to do something against the stone, and I felt my choices were to play R11 or the shoulder hit. In hindsight I think I missed the fact that he couldn't make a two space extension after R11 so I'd prefer to play that if I were to do it again.

I had some fear of him getting too much strength facing the center, allowing him to lay claim to too much at the top. However I'm already well enough into the center when I look at it again and I don't really need to fear him getting to much there. I can already limit his top with something like G15, H15, H14, and build something equally nice or nicer for myself (something I overlooked completely). So the shoulder hit - poorly reasoned and poorly followed up since I didn't even confine him to the side but let him get out.

I've already looked over the game a bit with Leela and it really liked my position at this point - which tells my my evaluation was off since I maybe feared his top and overvalued his bottom too much.
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