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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #41 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:02 am 
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Official announcement from DeepMind
https://twitter.com/demishassabis/statu ... 3282954240


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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #42 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:28 am 
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pookpooi wrote:


Thank you!

Embedding the image from his tweet:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #43 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Here are some videos in which Master(P) won against Park Jeonghwan, Ke Jie, Iyama Yuta and Shin Jinseo:









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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #44 Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:39 pm 
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dankenzon wrote:
Look what Ali Jabarin (1p, Europe) just reported a few minutes ago in his facebook

"6 pm pairing draw for Limin cup tomorrow morning, 5:58 I'm glued to Tygem watching some mysterious account beat Park Junghwan (again) after just beating Ke Jie twice in a row, oops late for the ceremony, meet ke jie who is also late from watching the game on the way to the ceremony and he is a bit shocked.. just repeating "it's too strong".
Dunno whether it's alphago or not but it's definitely some strong computer with 20-0(and counting) score against top pros, go check out Master(P) on Tygem."

pookpooi wrote:

Might be a good time to update the thread title to something more informative? So people don't continue to accidentally skip the thread. Maybe something like: "AlphaGo/Master(P) undefeated in 60 online blitz games vs top pros".

OP or a moderator, interested in changing the thread title?


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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem?
Post #45 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:26 am 
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My impression is that how AlphaGo is able to play in Japanese rule with 6.5 komi

Are they force AlphaGo? And degrading performance is acceptable since it's already way ahead of top pro.
Or they train with new data to play specifically with Japanese rule.
Or they do something, like unsupervised training, self-train from scratch, that can be flexible in rule and komi?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #46 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Regarding Game 55 - Chen Yaoye, there's a funny anecdote to it.
It was in fact Chen Yaoye and Meng Tailing playing both against Master (although the decision was always Chen's to make) during a live session at Weiqi TV.

Here's the first part where Chen Yaoye and Meng Tailing talk about their respective games and their feelings when waiting for Nie Weiping's game to finish :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUFZLxj_u70

And here's the backstage as the match was going on :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BknZMjTpqmY

During the game, around minute 8, there is a funny part that translates like this after Master plays the keima in response to the pincer :

Meng Tailing : and what about the kosumi ? is it playable (shi bu shi qi = (literally) is it go) ?
Chen Yaoye : (muttering) no, that's not playable
Meng Tailing : (after Chen Yaoye protects the corner) and now, if white presses you down, do you play it ?
Chen Yaoye : i don't know

and later in the game (forgot where) :
Meng Tailing : (again) why not play this move ?
Chen Yaoye : no
Meng Tailing : what's your refutation ? how does white respond ?
Chen Yaoye : i don't know... doesn't feel like the right move...
Meng Tailing : (laughing) oh sh** !

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #47 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:38 pm 
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German IT news site “Golem” links to this thread in L19 in an article about AlphaGo :-)

http://www.golem.de/news/deep-mind-alph ... 25415.html

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #48 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Bonobo wrote:
German IT news site “Golem” links to this thread in L19 in an article about AlphaGo :-)

http://www.golem.de/news/deep-mind-alph ... 25415.html


So if you linked back to it then we have a circular link. Will the internet crash? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #49 Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:12 pm 
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Meng Tailing reviewed his first game against Master:



Expect him to review the rest in future episodes, although he did say he performed the best in this first game and attributed part of that to not knowing it's a computer AI yet. The exchange in the upper-right was a highlight, where he believed he got much closer after falling behind in the first 50 moves. Seeing what happened at the 33:19 mark was pretty crazy too.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #50 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:15 am 
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According to CrazyStone's analysis, this game was one of a very few "untypical" ones of the series, as it was "undecided" until late into the game (approx. move 180).

Usually, the "point of no return" is much earlier in the games (please refer to viewtopic.php?p=215477#p215477 for diagrams).


Attachments:
CSDL-AnalysisGame 9.jpg
CSDL-AnalysisGame 9.jpg [ 164.53 KiB | Viewed 12241 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #51 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:52 am 
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Please find attached CS's result of its analysis with "depth=high".


Attachments:
CSDL-AnalysisGame9_high.jpg
CSDL-AnalysisGame9_high.jpg [ 153.48 KiB | Viewed 12262 times ]
Game9_High_RecordPrint.pdf [32.82 KiB]
Downloaded 423 times

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #52 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:44 am 
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Cassandra wrote:
According to CrazyStone's analysis, this game was one of a very few "untypical" ones of the series, as it was "undecided" until late into the game (approx. move 180).

Usually, the "point of no return" is much earlier in the games (please refer to viewtopic.php?p=215477#p215477 for diagrams).


Which game are you referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #53 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:47 am 
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"This" game, which is the basis for the diagrams above, is game #9.

Please find attached a diagram that shows the averages of "P (B wins)" for AlphaGo as Black and as White.

EDIT: Adjusted the diagram following ez4u's suggestion below.

"1-White" is the mirrored curve for "AlphaGo as White". It is above "AlphaGo as Black", which can be interpreted that AlphaGo plays better with White than with Black (this was also said at the Lee-Sedol-time).


Attachments:
Average.jpg
Average.jpg [ 162.81 KiB | Viewed 11819 times ]

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Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #54 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Yet another IT Web site links to this thread—this time it’s Ars Technica!

Sebastian Anthony on Ars Technica wrote:
[..] Over the last week, a number of forum threads have popped up to discuss this mystery debutante who has been thrashing the world's best players. [..]

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #55 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Cassandra wrote:
"This" game, which is the basis for the diagrams above, is game #9.

Please find attached a diagram that shows the averages of "P (B wins)" for AlphaGo as Black and as White.

"1-Black" is the mirrored curve for "AlphaGo as Black". It is above "AlphaGo as White", which can be interpreted that AlphaGo plays better with White than with Black (this was also said at the Lee-Sedol-time).

I think you should invert White rather than Black to make your comparison. You would then have lines for the probability AG wins as Black versus the probability AG wins as White.

In any case, we see that the winning probability is higher playing White from the very beginning. The immediate interpretation would seem to be that komi is too large and gives White an advantage. This is consistent with many players' opinion based on human vs human play. The lines seem very consistent over the first 150+ plays. If AG were better playing White, the gap between the lines should diverge move by move. This does not seem to happen to any significant extent.

How should we interpret the changes that occur around move 165? Is it AG changing its evaluation process as the winning probability grows too large? Is it desperation appearing in the opponents' play?

Anyway, very interesting information. Well done! :tmbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #56 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:34 am 
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Please find below the results of CS's analysis (depth="high") for some of the "longer" games.
Scaling for both axis is identical in all the diagrams.

I am not strong enough to correlate this "bot view" with the judgement of a strong human player.

However, one idea might be that the diffences in the graphs are affected by the number of territories during the games ?

Please note that the "score" in game #9 did never exceed 10 points, which seems to be quite unique here (#36 was in this range for most of the game, especially in the phase before the "point of no return").
On the other hand, Gu Li's large moyo strategy in game #60 was not "praised" by CS.


Attachments:
CSAnalysisGame36.jpg
CSAnalysisGame36.jpg [ 135.58 KiB | Viewed 11806 times ]
CSAnalysisGame18.jpg
CSAnalysisGame18.jpg [ 137.79 KiB | Viewed 11808 times ]
CSAnalysisGame09.jpg
CSAnalysisGame09.jpg [ 150.08 KiB | Viewed 11808 times ]

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Last edited by Cassandra on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #57 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:35 am 
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...


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CSAnalysisGame60.jpg [ 141.4 KiB | Viewed 11806 times ]
CSAnalysisGame48.jpg
CSAnalysisGame48.jpg [ 150.18 KiB | Viewed 11806 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #58 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:43 am 
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For those who are interested in, please find attached the exports of CS's analysis of the five games mentioned above.


Attachments:
Master.zip [155.62 KiB]
Downloaded 434 times

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #59 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:04 am 
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ez4u wrote:
In any case, we see that the winning probability is higher playing White from the very beginning. The immediate interpretation would seem to be that komi is too large and gives White an advantage. This is consistent with many players' opinion based on human vs human play. The lines seem very consistent over the first 150+ plays. If AG were better playing White, the gap between the lines should diverge move by move. This does not seem to happen to any significant extent.


The only thing we can conclude is that Crazy Stone prefers white. We know nothing about AlphaGo's perceived winning probability.

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 Post subject: Re: Who's playing in Tygem? -- It was AlphaGo!!
Post #60 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:37 am 
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uPWarrior wrote:
The only thing we can conclude is that Crazy Stone prefers white.

Yes, indeed, it seems that there is an offset. I did not consider this.

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