This joseki emerged in an online game I played today, I looked up the position on sensei's library afterwards given I'd never played it before (although I was aware of the general sequence). At this point the commentary on this position says there is "a peaceful play for black at b and a fight at a" but goes into no more detail on further sequences. In the game my opponent played at b, and despite having played joseki up to this point I have no idea if how I played next was right.
For reference this was my follow up, didn't feel fantastic for me in the game:
Joseki question
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Struttnoddy
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EdLee
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Hi Struttnoddy,
Curiosity questions:
- What was the whole board ?
- You evaluated the top bigger over the
atari sequence ?
- Any Leela evaluations throughout the moves ( and game ) ?
- One database search: (b) occasional move: 9% ( out of 64 (pro) games ).
- After your 2nd diagram, W usually tenuki'd ( 5 out of 6 games ).
- Go Seigen played your shape ( same corner & color
) in 1958, and won. 
Curiosity questions:
- What was the whole board ?
- You evaluated the top bigger over the
atari sequence ?
- Any Leela evaluations throughout the moves ( and game ) ?- One database search: (b) occasional move: 9% ( out of 64 (pro) games ).
- After your 2nd diagram, W usually tenuki'd ( 5 out of 6 games ).
- Go Seigen played your shape ( same corner & color
) in 1958, and won. -
Struttnoddy
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Re: Joseki question
Hiya, thanks for the comments 
Whole board position:
I wasn't keen on the atari variation given black's upper left enclosure
I've never really done much with Leela, perhaps I should!
I did indeed tenuki after the 2nd diagram
The sequence of black pushing through at 'b' is essentially forced for white. Perhaps the compensation for black's thickness along the right side was just getting sente?
Good to know I'm in some good company as well
Whole board position:
I wasn't keen on the atari variation given black's upper left enclosure
I've never really done much with Leela, perhaps I should!
I did indeed tenuki after the 2nd diagram
The sequence of black pushing through at 'b' is essentially forced for white. Perhaps the compensation for black's thickness along the right side was just getting sente?
Good to know I'm in some good company as well
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Uberdude
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Re: Joseki question
- Outward turn in that joseki should be okay for white if it's ruining Black potential on top side, as here.
- white needs ladder, as here.
- white no choice after b push through. So you have to accept it.
- I can understand feeling shortchanged with this result locally, I do too sometimes. Black has much more territory. White is super strong but the turn/push below 6 is still big. Sometimes worth paying immediately.
- If b plays on top side you ignore or invade to use thickness.
- If white plays go a long way e.g. attach on outside of shimari.
- white needs ladder, as here.
- white no choice after b push through. So you have to accept it.
- I can understand feeling shortchanged with this result locally, I do too sometimes. Black has much more territory. White is super strong but the turn/push below 6 is still big. Sometimes worth paying immediately.
- If b plays on top side you ignore or invade to use thickness.
- If white plays go a long way e.g. attach on outside of shimari.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Joseki question
Yeah, Black is plainly ahead in territory and a little bit in influence. But Black has played one more stone than White. Since correct komi is 7 or so, Black should be ahead in the early play by around 14 pts. White may actually have the edge, on an empty board.Struttnoddy wrote:This joseki emerged in an online game I played today, I looked up the position on sensei's library afterwards given I'd never played it before (although I was aware of the general sequence). At this point the commentary on this position says there is "a peaceful play for black at b and a fight at a" but goes into no more detail on further sequences. In the game my opponent played at b, and despite having played joseki up to this point I have no idea if how I played next was right.
For reference this was my follow up, didn't feel fantastic for me in the game:
And considering that, in the actual game, White spoils Black's sphere of influence on the top side, maybe Black should not have played the one space low pincer.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Struttnoddy
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Re: Joseki question
Having looked at it more and considered all your comments I think I'm happier with the outcome than I was during the game
Certainly having disrupted the top and gained sente I don't think I could be too unhappy, even if black did better locally. In addition black's push through to get thickness on the right eliminates any aji in connecting the stones at 'a'.
Cheers again for all the thoughts
Edit: I looked through this position with Leela and by the end of my second diagram it gives white ~60% win percentage. The push at 'b' for black drops black's win rate by almost 10%... the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence suggested by Ed!
Certainly having disrupted the top and gained sente I don't think I could be too unhappy, even if black did better locally. In addition black's push through to get thickness on the right eliminates any aji in connecting the stones at 'a'.
Cheers again for all the thoughts
Edit: I looked through this position with Leela and by the end of my second diagram it gives white ~60% win percentage. The push at 'b' for black drops black's win rate by almost 10%... the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence suggested by Ed!
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EdLee
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Re: Joseki question
Interesting.Struttnoddy wrote: Edit: I looked through this position with Leela and by the end of my second diagram it gives white ~60% win percentage. The push at 'b' for black drops black's win rate by almost 10%... the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence suggested by Ed!
The atari is fairly standard in the modern form of this joseki, the turn is special, but playable, depending on ko, as Uberdude says. I am surprised that Leela has a definite preference for the atari, as the Black thickness on the side works well with the Black enclosure in the adjacent corner. My impression is that during the 18th century a lot of joseki seemed to gel, so that corner play in 1700 is freer than in 1800. But this joseki, IIRC, seems to be an exception. By this joseki I mean high approach, low pincer, 3-3 attachment, inside hane. It seems as though the top players were not all that sure how to evaluate the different variations.
Edit: Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Struttnoddy
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Re:
Yes, the atari is better than the turn for white but not by more that 2/3% or so on this board. Interesting given the black enclosureEdLee wrote:Do you mean for your board, Leela likes the W atari better than the W turn, for W ?the turn for white is a few percent worse than the atari sequence
( Probably for humans, LZ's and AGZ's few percents are a wash.
Leela doesn't even consider this move, it might be playable but I can't see an awful lot of promising continuations. The wedge doesn't really seem to work any more and supposedly it's the only reason white can play the 3-3 attachment in the first placeBill Spight wrote:Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Re:
See how Leela evaluates this position afterStruttnoddy wrote:Leela doesn't even consider this move, it might be playable but I can't see an awful lot of promising continuations. The wedge doesn't really seem to work any more and supposedly it's the only reason white can play the 3-3 attachment in the first placeBill Spight wrote:Here is an atari that Waltheri says has good stats, but it has only a few instances in its database. What does Leela think?
. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Struttnoddy
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Re: Joseki question
If white wedges immediately Leela black at a ~45% win rate, whereas the white atari puts black at ~50%. After your diagram it's still about 50/50
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Uberdude
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Re: Joseki question
The inside hane by Black after White's 3-3 attachment isn't played much these days. I recall recently reading that joseki is now considered better for white locally with some tewari argument (Edit: found it on Viktor Lin's blog relaying weiqi tv video) so it's only ok for Black if he can make particularly effective use of the thickness (facing along the top side here).