Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3

Gomoto · #1

A play at 1 is the strongest move. But you need to know the follow up moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #2

Especially if white tries this stubborn resistance :twisted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #3

It is very important to play 5 and dont chicken out!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #4

forced continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 8 6 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . B . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 0 . . . . . $$ | . . . . 9 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #5

This is where the fun begins ...

Gomoto · #6

Variation 1:

(the top of the pro variations, but questionable)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 O X . X . . , . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #7

Variation 1a:

Move 8 is probably stronger than a move at a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 O X . X 6 a , . $$ | . 2 X X O O 5 7 8 . . $$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Additional Info:
Lee Taehyun 7p - Kim Junghyun 6p, B+Resign (Komi 6.5)
year 2017 Korean League, round 5, 2017-07-14

Gomoto · #8

Possible continuation 1a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . W . 6 a . $$ | . . O O X 9 X X 5 7 0 $$ | . X X X O O O O X 8 . $$ | . . . 1 X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . O 2 3 . . . . $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . O . X 1 . $$ | . . O O X O X X . . X $$ | . X X X O O O O X X . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . O X O . . . . $$ | . . . O . X . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · #9

Variation 1b:

Move 1 is not working. This is good for black. (The move at 2 is probably stronger than the play at a.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . $$ | . 1 O O X . X a . , . $$ | . X X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Additional Info:
Tang Weixing 9p - Mi Yuting 9p, B+Resign (Komi 7.5)
19th Chinese League A, round 19, 2017-10-08

Gomoto · **#10**

More to come ...

Uberdude · **#11**

Gomoto wrote:

Possible continuation 1a:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . W . 6 a . $$ | . . O O X 9 X X 5 7 0 $$ | . X X X O O O O X X . $$ | . . . 1 X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . O 2 3 . . . . $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

black 8 was pass?

P.S. Sometimes my opponents cut instead of empty triangle block in var 1. I've nor seen that in pro games, mistake? how to continue?

This is a very interesting new joseki!

Bill Spight · **#12**

Uberdude wrote:

black 8 was pass?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W W11 marked, B12 at a $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . W . 6 a . $$ | . . O O X 9 X X 5 7 0 $$ | . X X X O O O O X 8 . $$ | . . . 1 X X . . . . . $$ | . . . . O 2 3 . . . . $$ | . . . O . 4 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'm pretty sure.

Gomoto · **#13**

@Uberdude:

The cut is not a good option for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . 6 . O X . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . X 4 . , . $$ | . . X X O O 3 . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 X . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 1 3 O O X 5 . . . . $$ | . X 2 O X 6 . . . . . $$ | . . . O X . X X . , . $$ | . . X X O O O . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . $$ | . 8 . O . . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . O . . . . . . . $$ | . 7 9 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Uberdude · **#14**

I would not expect white to make that centre push as it loses the 2nd line cut emergency escape route for the corner. If following happens then white is saying a and b miai; let's assume for now giving black a stone at c doesn't make ladder at d work.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 5 7 O O X . . . . . $$ | . 4 6 O X a . . . . . $$ | . . . O X c X . . , . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . 2 1 X d . . . . . $$ | . b . 3 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Then black saves his stones and encourages white to cut because it damages the outside. Extend of 12 is a tesuji aiming for miai of ladder above or net below, but white can avoid both with pushing to take liberty (we still assume ladder is good for white if white chose to cut).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm8 $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . O O O O X . . . . . $$ | . X X O X 2 4 6 . . . $$ | . . . O X 3 X 5 . , . $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I suppose black plays this yummy squeeze and white's shape sucks. Where next? a/b/c are some ideas. Maybe white should have pushed at d before that self-damaging second line cut to make sure the e weakness is serious. This is probably good for black, but as black I could probably lose against Ilya Shikshin from here seeing as groups are cut and nothing white is dead and black does have some weaknesses too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm14 $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . $$ | . O O O O X 2 3 . . . $$ | . X X O X O O O 1 . . $$ | . . d O X X X X c , . $$ | . . X X O O 9 . . . . $$ | . . X O 0 6 5 . . . . $$ | . e . O 8 7 . . . . . $$ | . X . O . . . . . . . $$ | . a b . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Gomoto · **#15**

balance of power ;-)

drmwc · **#16**

Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Bill Spight · **#17**

drmwc wrote:

Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Me, too.

The winners rewrite history, eh?

Gomoto · **#18**

Who am I to tell you it is slack?

But I would not play it myself anymore :ugeek:

Uberdude · **#19**

drmwc wrote:

Interesting. Is the move below now considered to be slack? I learned it as a joseki many years ago.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . , . $$ | . . X 3 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yup, at least in China, and Alpha Go supports that view. See #9 at https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/15/top- ... nt-page-1/.

sorin · **#20**

Uberdude wrote:

Yup, at least in China, and Alpha Go supports that view. See #9 at https://viktorlingo.com/2018/02/15/top- ... nt-page-1/.

I was very surprised when I saw that LeelaZero also plays the same main fighting variation as AlphaGo does. As if it is the most natural way to play Go.
Which reminded me of something John wrote sometime after AlphaGo defeated Lee Sedol, I don't remember the exact quote but along the lines of "maybe there is some simple secret to playing Go well, something that humans just overlooked so far".

I somehow accepted the sad fact that humans overlooked the simple 3x3 invasion under 4x4 as being a strong move early in the game, and I explained to myself that two different AIs somehow discovered it very early in their self-play training because it is a relative simple sequence - but how do different AIs discover what looks like an extremely complicated variation like the one in this thread, AND they find it so natural to play, is just beyond me. Looks like magic :-)

Gomoto's Joseki Studies #3

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