It is currently Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:38 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
Online
 Post subject: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #1 Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 6:54 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 72
Location: NC, USA
Liked others: 35
Was liked: 18
Proposal #1: Add the Grand Prix finals to the list of major tournaments of the year. Tournament winner should receive 10 LDPs and wins against pros should count (1 LDP).

Proposal #2: Add the annual 2-week GO congress open tournament to the list of major tournaments. Tournament winner should receive 10 LDPs and wins against pros should count (1 LDP per win).

Currently, wins against pros in Bonus C tournaments count and you gen an extra point for winning the tournament, but you get nothing for winning the open? That doesn't seem right.

Proposal #3. Allow a player to become pro by winning 30 LDPs. The LDPs would be won the same way pros win them (by winning against pros and for winning tournaments). The amateur LDPs expire after 10 years.

Proposal #4. Change the mechanism for achieving pro status to be as follows:
A pro slot becomes available every two years. An amateur is awarded Pro status by collecting 30 LDPs or by winning a promotion tournament.
In the year in which the pro slot becomes available, the promotion is as follows:
a) If two or more players have 30 LDPs, these (and only these) will play a round robin tournament and the winner becomes the new pro.
d) If only one player has 30 LDPs, that player becomes pro and no promotion tournament is organized.
e) If no player has 30 LDPs, a promotion tournament will decide the new pro player. All players with at least 10 LDPs or with rating of 2600 or higher are automatically invited to this tournament.


An amateur player could win LDPs as follows:
1) win against pros in European Championship, Grand Slam, Grand Prix Final, Bonus A, B or C tournaments. (If proposal #2 is accepted, in the GO congress 2-week open as well).
2) Win the European Championship, Grand Slam, Grand Prix Final, Bonus A, B or C tournaments

At first glance, proposal #3 would dilute the quality of pros. But I don't think that would be the case. Right now, to become a pro, you need to 3 wins in a tournament against other amateurs. Andrii Kravets became pro by winning 3 games in 2017 European Pro Qualification Tournament. One could argue he had to win a lot more to take part in that tournament, but let's leave that aside for a moment.

So current way of becoming a pro is to win 3 times against other strong amateurs. My proposal is to also become pro by constantly racking up wins against pros and amateurs. Keep in mind that unlike pros, amateurs cannot take place in annual pro championship. So to gain 30 LDPs, they would win 30 times against pros, or to keep winning Level A, B and C tournament, or to win the Grand Slam or Grand Prix a couple of times. Or to win against pros in world tournaments.

And I believe this second way of becoming a pro is much harder than winning an 8-player tournament of other amateur candidates.

And the amount of LDPs was calculated from the current points progression system. It seems you need extra 10 LDPs to get from one rank to the next:
1p -> 2p = 40 LDPs
2p -> 3p = 50 LDPs, etc

So it seems natural that
0p -> 1p = 30 LDPs


Last edited by silviu22 on Sat May 26, 2018 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #2 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:44 am 
Judan

Posts: 5880
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 335
Was liked: 3138
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Seems a resonable proposal, but first I propose listing the EGF pros on the EGF website (in an easy to find place), with a little bio and promotion history/explanation.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #3 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 1:50 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 393
Liked others: 74
Was liked: 121
Rank: igs 4d
Uberdude wrote:
Seems a resonable proposal, but first lets list the EGF pros on the EGF website (in an easy to find place), with a little bio and promotion history/explanation.

Actually, they did do that! https://eurogofed.org/pros/
I remember thread(s) here some months(?) ago where I "complained" about the lack of informations about pros and (commented) games on the EGF website so it seems things are moving forward!


This post by Shenoute was liked by 3 people: betterlife, Kirgan, Uberdude
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #4 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 2:05 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1208
Liked others: 97
Was liked: 259
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #5 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:46 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8490
Liked others: 2483
Was liked: 2945
Javaness2 wrote:
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.


You get this kind of thing in contract bridge, where one can accumulate points via sitzfleisch. One answer is to have amateur's points decay at a moderate rate, such as 10% per year.

_________________
There is one human race.
----------------------------------------------------

The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:42 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8510
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 322
Was liked: 1963
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.
How do they do it in chess ? Did they switch to a 100% ELO-based system for everyone, amateurs and (grand/international) masters alike, some years ago ? There's no such thing as a "pro (grandmaster) qualification tourney" in chess, is there ? Anyone's current ELO rating is all that matters ? So one must come continue to actively participate in the top tourneys to remain relevant with their ELO rating ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #7 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:47 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 419
Liked others: 179
Was liked: 185
Javaness2 wrote:
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.


Cho Insun is the first to become a Korean pro through their point accumulation system. But the bar is really high.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #8 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:53 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 384
Liked others: 290
Was liked: 58
IGS: 4k
Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
Bill Spight wrote:
Javaness2 wrote:
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.


You get this kind of thing in contract bridge, where one can accumulate points via sitzfleisch. One answer is to have amateur's points decay at a moderate rate, such as 10% per year.


I agree. The only alternative would be to set a very high point threshold, but that might make qualification take too long for those who should qualify.

This is a bit far afield, but American Sporting Clays shooting has a slightly different version of this decay system. There are different levels of competition, and shooters accumulate points at each level by placing against similarly ranked opponents. Once they meet a specific threshold, they get bumped up to the next level. However, points expire after two years. So, players can't drift upwards after winning the odd competition every few years.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #9 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:13 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 72
Location: NC, USA
Liked others: 35
Was liked: 18
Javaness2 wrote:
Regarding #3, I think that the title of professional will become meaningless (too devalued) if amateurs are allowed to qualify through a points based system.


I don't think we would have that problem. But to assuage this concern, I would change #3 rule to be as follows:

Proposal #3. Allow a player to become pro by winning 30 LDPs. The LDPs would be won the same way pros win them (by winning against pros and for winning tournaments). Amateur LDPs expire after 10 years, so only the points accumulated in the last 10 years can be used to gain professional status.

I believe the players become pros faster through the Pro qualification tournament than through the points accumulation system. I will do a check, but I think Artem Kachanovskyi would become pro in 2018, after winning Kido Cup in May 2018. That is over a year after he became pro through the tournament. And Katchanovski is one of the stronger pros (I believe he will become 2P before Matheusz Surma).

And with the points system, the newest pro (Andrii Kravetz) would be years away from becoming pro. Kravetz accumulated only 2 LDPs in one year.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #10 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:16 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1208
Liked others: 97
Was liked: 259
Still, the EGF wants to limit the number of pros. That's why there will be no qualification tournament this year. So why allow a new route via a points system?
I don't think it will happen.

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #11 Posted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:30 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 72
Location: NC, USA
Liked others: 35
Was liked: 18
Javaness2 wrote:
Still, the EGF wants to limit the number of pros. That's why there will be no qualification tournament this year. So why allow a new route via a points system?
I don't think it will happen.


I think the points system is fairer. The points system would give pro status to someone who consistently beats the pros rather than someone with a good performance in only one tournament. I also believe someone who gets in through the points system would reach 2p faster than the ones who get in through the qualification tournament.

Also, at the moment I don't there is anybody that would be close to becoming pro using points. The pros keep winning against the strongest amateurs and there are very few players winning multiple bonus tournaments.

Another reason might be to encourage the top players to play as many bonus A, B, C tournaments as possible.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #12 Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:36 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1354
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 380
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Amateurs getting points and playing against amateurs is how pros qualify in Japan. The inseis are amateurs and the pro qualification tournament players are all amateurs. A very few others become pros by different methods, such as Hiraoka Satoshi who won the WAGC twice and passed a test playing a match against a 9p. I doubt anyone would say Hiraoka didn't deserve his pro status.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #13 Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:37 am 
Lives with ko
User avatar

Posts: 176
Liked others: 4
Was liked: 55
Rank: EGF 5 dan
GD Posts: 29
gowan wrote:
Amateurs getting points and playing against amateurs is how pros qualify in Japan. The inseis are amateurs and the pro qualification tournament players are all amateurs. A very few others become pros by different methods, such as Hiraoka Satoshi who won the WAGC twice and passed a test playing a match against a 9p. I doubt anyone would say Hiraoka didn't deserve his pro status.

I presume you mean Sakai Hideyuki, who went on to win a Gosei title, earned places in leagues and picked up several Kansai Ki-in 1st places. Hiraoka was still an amateur, last time I met him in WAGC in Thailand.

Cheers,
Vesa

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #14 Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 3:00 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1354
Liked others: 346
Was liked: 380
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 1000
Vesa wrote:
gowan wrote:
Amateurs getting points and playing against amateurs is how pros qualify in Japan. The inseis are amateurs and the pro qualification tournament players are all amateurs. A very few others become pros by different methods, such as Hiraoka Satoshi who won the WAGC twice and passed a test playing a match against a 9p. I doubt anyone would say Hiraoka didn't deserve his pro status.

I presume you mean Sakai Hideyuki, who went on to win a Gosei title, earned places in leagues and picked up several Kansai Ki-in 1st places. Hiraoka was still an amateur, last time I met him in WAGC in Thailand.

Cheers,
Vesa


Yes, I meant Sakai. Thanks for the correction.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: Proposals for changing European promotional system
Post #15 Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:44 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 72
Location: NC, USA
Liked others: 35
Was liked: 18
I created a list of amateur players that have accumulated LDPs through my unofficial system. You can see it at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18cQPKamnkSUBgLQoc1ATLov-YxDT99z-YThP_6iXifA/edit#gid=536177528.

This list shows that it is very difficult to accumulate these LDPs. After 3.5 years, only one player (Cristian Pop) would have 10LDPs.

3 other players have 4 (Dusan Mitic, Lukas Podpera and Thomas Debarre). It is pretty clear to me that my proposal would not dilute or lower the quality of professional players. It is much easier to achiave Pro status by winning the promotion tournament than by accumulating LDPs.

Ilya Shikshin didn't give any LDPs to amateur players. Pavol Lisy has given up the most, but I think that is because he plays a lot of tournaments.

Also, according to my calculations, Ali Jabarin should already be 2p. The only thing holding up his promotion is because they haven't decided how many points to give for winning the Grand Prix final. Mateusz Surma is only 1 point away from 2p status.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group