6k v. 6k

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Tue May 29, 2018 4:43 pm

Another game where I had a bad loss (I had black). I ran the game through Leela, and that showed that I played a lot of bad moves. It doesn't help me understand why Leela's suggestions are any better, however.

In particular, Leela didn't like

(the tenuki at C11),

(my attempt to get compensation in the lower left), and

(getting two eyes without a ko). After

Leela seems to think the position is hopeless for Black.

I played on for another 75 moves, howver.

Any ideas?

WindCaliber · Post by **WindCaliber** » Tue May 29, 2018 5:52 pm

After making the 2 space jump, I don't know if I would play a local move—it seems to accomplish too little. I would think of the attach joseki at the bottom left, but if I were to play locally, I would maybe do a 1 space jump on E11. Somehow, your move seems very weird to me.

My idea about

is that your Black group is no longer very comfortable, and, in addition, getting that strong position by capturing the White stone facing the center must be pretty big. Also, I'm pretty certain it's sente for you, as White almost surely needs to connect at H4 after that, or B will cut and atari.

Since it's sente for Black, you can still invade the 3-3 subsequently.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue May 29, 2018 6:06 pm

My replies

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Tue May 29, 2018 6:33 pm

Hi Fedya,

Seems a nice way to use Leela ( with human elaboration ).

Leela didn't like

I still don't have a Leela-level bot;
please pardon my noob questions:
does Leela show its local LR continuation for

?
If yes, what is it, and how does it compare to Knotwilg's var. ? Thanks.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed May 30, 2018 4:56 am

Knotwilg wrote:you are right, this is also gote for Black.

Hmm, I disagree!

In the game Black defended the lower left corner in gote and White took sente elsewhere.

In the variation, Black takes sente to make that ponnuki in the middle, then at some point White plays a sequence that is his privilege in the lower left (in which both players play equal number of stones).

Am I misunderstanding something or misusing terms?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Wed May 30, 2018 6:06 am

dfan wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:you are right, this is also gote for Black.
Hmm, I disagree!

In the game Black defended the lower left corner in gote and White took sente elsewhere.

In the variation, Black takes sente to make that ponnuki in the middle, then at some point White plays a sequence that is his privilege in the lower left (in which both players play equal number of stones).

Am I misunderstanding something or misusing terms?

I think that both Fedya and Knotwilg are assuming that back must come back and patch the corner with B1 in gote.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Wed May 30, 2018 6:16 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
dfan wrote:
Knotwilg wrote:you are right, this is also gote for Black.
Hmm, I disagree!

In the game Black defended the lower left corner in gote and White took sente elsewhere.

In the variation, Black takes sente to make that ponnuki in the middle, then at some point White plays a sequence that is his privilege in the lower left (in which both players play equal number of stones).

Am I misunderstanding something or misusing terms?
I think that both Fedya and Knotwilg are assuming that back must come back and patch the corner with B1 in gote.

I agree that the sequence ends with B B1, but I don't call this "Black playing in gote", I call it "W taking his privilege to play a sente sequence", which Black is allowing by taking sente to play elsewhere.

The game sequence ends with a Black move (73). The variation sequence also virtually ends with a Black move (79 @ B1) but in the meantime Black has played an extra move in the rest of the board (73 @ K6). Moves 74-79 in the variation are simply White's privilege.

You and Knotwilg are both stronger players than me so I assume I'm probably still missing something...

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed May 30, 2018 8:14 am

I think that

capturing the K-05 stone may well be sente, threatening to save the two Black stones. If White ignores that threat and plays in the corner, I think that B-01 is the play, not B-04. In the variation staring with

at B-04, I think that

should leave the ko in the corner and atari at H-04 to save the two stones.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Wed May 30, 2018 12:03 pm

Dfan, your analysis of the lower left corner is correct. Another way of saying the same thing is that B played a reverse-sente move in that corner. Leela apparently thinks this is too small.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Wed May 30, 2018 12:17 pm

I only put 79 at B1 to show that White had the threat there and I was going to have to respond, which is why I played B4 in the first place.

Regarding Ed's question about what Leela suggests for

the top three variations are:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ N7 (a is 11, b is 12) $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 8 . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b 0 7 6 2 . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 O . . O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ R3 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X e g | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d b f | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 X 0 c | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O . . O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Getting stuck with such small life doesn't seem good to me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ P8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . O . . . . . . 7 O . O O O . | $$ | . 9 0 O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c d . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X O O O O . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . | $$ | . . . . 4 X . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That invasion in the corner doesn't look any better to me than what I tried.

Leela seems to want to tenuki a lot, but when I tenuki it doesn't seem to be the right time according to the Leela analysis.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed May 30, 2018 12:44 pm

Fedya wrote:Leela seems to want to tenuki a lot, but when I tenuki it doesn't seem to be the right time according to the Leela analysis.

Since Leela wants to tenuki a lot, you should, too. Sometimes you will tenuki when you shouldn't, but more often you will tenuki when you should.

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