Where would you play?

[Bill Spight]

I just had an interesting experience. I was playing over the game record without giving it much thought. To my surprise, when I got to the position that Uberdude had posed as a problem, the board looked different to me. Perhaps that had to do with my state of relaxation, but I also think that having seen White's move gave me a new perspective. Although I recognize that dealing with the opponent's thickness is a relative weakness of mine, because I am typically the one who makes thickness, I was not daunted by the opponent's thickness; instead, the right side and center looked quite big and inviting.

This change in perspective was not the result of remembering exactly where White had played in the actual game (I didn't), nor of studying the subsequent play (I never did). Aside from my present state of relaxation, I think that simply seeing White's play altered my perception of the game, and that it will alter my perception of other positions, as well.

Humans are quite adaptable, and one of our strengths, imitation, is not just a rote copycat ability. I think that modern go AI bots will have a great effect on the next generation of players, by revealing possibilities and widening their horizons. They will see the go board differently than our generation does. 20 years from now I would not be surprised to see a player emerge who is even better than Go Seigen was.

[Kirby]

My idea from the OP was to block the ko in the bottom right. I guess black probably wins from the moyo after that, though.

[Ian Butler]

I just had an interesting experience. I was playing over the game record without giving it much thought. To my surprise, when I got to the position that Uberdude had posed as a problem, the board looked different to me. Perhaps that had to do with my state of relaxation, but I also think that having seen White's move gave me a new perspective. Although I recognize that dealing with the opponent's thickness is a relative weakness of mine, because I am typically the one who makes thickness, I was not daunted by the opponent's thickness; instead, the right side and center looked quite big and inviting.

This change in perspective was not the result of remembering exactly where White had played in the actual game (I didn't), nor of studying the subsequent play (I never did). Aside from my present state of relaxation, I think that simply seeing White's play altered my perception of the game, and that it will alter my perception of other positions, as well.

Humans are quite adaptable, and one of our strengths, imitation, is not just a rote copycat ability. I think that modern go AI bots will have a great effect on the next generation of players, by revealing possibilities and widening their horizons. They will see the go board differently than our generation does. 20 years from now I would not be surprised to see a player emerge who is even better than Go Seigen was.

Interesting, I have the opposite view concerning moyos. I see them as territory too easily and really have to learn to see the many possibilites how to deal with them

For me it's amazing white managed to win that game. Great game record, too.

[Kirby]

I looked at this position with Lizzie using Leela Zero, and let it ponder for awhile.

I don't have a GPU, so I don't know how meaningful it is, but the top move according to my computer was this:

$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . W . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . O . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . , . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . X X X . O O . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | O O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X . , X . . . . , . . . W . , . . . |
$$ | O X . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X O X X O X . X . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . O O X X . X X . . . . . . X O X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , O . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O O . . . . . . O X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But then I played out the position for a few moves using the top suggestions each time from Leela Zero, and black killed white and the win percentage dropped...

Maybe my computer doesn't have enough processing power?

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong

[Bill Spight]

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong

How does LeelaZero evaluate the position after ?

[daal]

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong

Could it be that the computer considers white's position to be a bit desperate?

[Kirby]

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong

Could it be that the computer considers white's position to be a bit desperate?

Good point - let me check on the exact percentage when I get home.

[Tryss]

Seems weird to suggest a move where you'll die as the top move.
Maybe I'm analyzing it wrong

Could it be that the computer considers white's position to be a bit desperate?

No, LZ consider that white has the advantage (a little over 65% winrate). And it start a fight, but white don't die (or not easily/without compensation)

What Kirby saw is probably the result of a very low playout numbers (and that's unreliable when fighting).

[dfan]

I get the same results as Tryss (network #145, 50k playouts). Leela Zero considers lots of similar moves in the original position to be of roughly equal value, including both the actual move and the one Kirby's run found.

[Kirby]

Is there any rule of thumb that says "X-many" playouts leads to a decision that's close to optimal? I guess it must depend on the board position, so I'm probably asking for something that's not feasible to be expected.

Given that, I'm not sure how much I can trust Leela Zero on my low-grade computer. Maybe I can use it to get some good first guesses on moves and/or intuition on areas to play. But it looks like actual fighting, etc., can't be trusted given that there's always a chance that I haven't done enough playouts to get close to an optimal result...

[dfan]

Yeah, I think that's about right. Even just a few visits is good for positional intuition, and I believe just one visit is already well into amateur dan level, but fighting still depends on reading, which means visits.

[Tryss]

I'd say, for non-complex fights, 3-5k playout is often enough. If the fight become complicated or if LZ consider seriously several different moves, the sky is the limit.

[MikeKyle]

I'm certainly not a dan player, but I'm surprised at people showing such a preference for black here.

My first instinct was that I would much rather be white. It's not that I think that the position is clearly better for either player, but just because white has solid cash (except for the ko) and his goal is now clear (even if the means of achieving that goal are not.) black seems to have all the big calls to make about how fighty to be

My first instinct would be to play something solid from the top group, but on looking at the centre a bit more I think I would go deeper, but not as deep as Carlo (and would loose!)