Many Faces of Go

[Chaosrider2808]

I got my copy of this re-booted this morning. I think it's time for me to move on from Igowin, to MFG.

The biggest problem I have is the font of the MACHINE COMMENT text is almost microscopic. The "wrapper" font sizes are all fine, but the text in the machine comment box on the lower left side is almost unusable.

Does anyone know how to increase the font size on that text?

Other tips for using MFG?

Thx!

TCS

[Gomoto]

Sorry, I have to recommend not using many Faces of Go anymore.

I really liked it a few years ago. But nowadays Leela Zero is the way to go.

A self review with Leela Zero (ELF) looks for example like this:

forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15861

[Mike Novack]

Which raises something I have not yet seen discussed.

These (new -- ie: last year or so) neural net based programs, how weak can they play? It is all well and good to discuss their capabilities to review games at a very high level.

The initial question was being asked by somebody who would be needing to take a fairly high handicap even against the weakest level of MCTS that ManyFaces 12 can play at << says 3 kyu, but I understand might actually be closer to 2 kyu >>

In other words, does anybody have experience with these neural net programs being asked to play against high handicaps? And can they be GRACEFULLY reduced in strength to play at say 1d? Because THAT is what players several kyu or weaker will need. An opponent that can be set to be several stones stronger than they are.

[Bill Spight]

Which raises something I have not yet seen discussed.

These (new -- ie: last year or so) neural net based programs, how weak can they play? It is all well and good to discuss their capabilities to review games at a very high level.

The initial question was being asked by somebody who would be needing to take a fairly high handicap even against the weakest level of MCTS that ManyFaces 12 can play at << says 3 kyu, but I understand might actually be closer to 2 kyu >>

In other words, does anybody have experience with these neural net programs being asked to play against high handicaps? And can they be GRACEFULLY reduced in strength to play at say 1d? Because THAT is what players several kyu or weaker will need. An opponent that can be set to be several stones stronger than they are.

Maybe the CrazyStone nets trained on human play of different strengths might be very good teaching tools.

[jlt]

For MFGo I don't know, but for LeelaZero, if it is too strong than it is certainly possible to use an older weight. However, older (kyu level) weights have a few shortcomings:

• they can't read ladders
• they don't count liberties, so sometimes lose semeais that a human would easily win
• sometimes, they think that an eyeless dragon is alive
• don't know many josekis, so games can become boring.

[dfan]

Maybe the CrazyStone nets trained on human play of different strengths might be very good teaching tools.

I like them in general, although if you play against a certain level many times you may encounter a lack of variety.

[Gomoto]

(For a plus on varity just enter a different fuseki and start play from there)

[Chaosrider2808]

Gomoto:

MFG has as an overwhelming advantage: the fact that I already have it!

But that raises an interesting question. Are all these zippy-whamo AI programs free? That would surprise me if true, but I have no idea.

Mike Novack:

Excellent point. I've goosed my skill up to a reliable 9 kyu, but I don't know that I would enjoy playing with a 9-stone handicap against a MACHINE. It just feels wrong, somehow.

It sounds like MFG may be a really bad choice for people a lot stronger than I am...

If MFG can play close to 3 kyu, that should serve my needs for quite a while. In any event, I've currently settled on using it mostly for reviewing pro games.

Thx,

TCS

[Gomoto]

Leela Zero is free indeed.

[Mike Novack]

No, MFOG 12 can play 1d. The next level down (still MCTS) is 3kyu. The 6 kyu level and below is not MCTS. You could try your MFOG at level 3 kyu taking 6 stones or level 6kyu taking 3 stones.

Three stones does not distort the play as higher handicaps do.

You CAN as MFOG "why", in which mode it will list the various things a move is doing. Unlike other MCTS programs, MFOG levels 1d and 3 kyu use MCTS to pick between a set of plausible moves, that set created by an AI. In other words, use MCTS to evaluate. Below that uses an AI to evaluate. Because all the moves in a plausible set got included in the set for "go reasons" MFOG can show you those reasons.

[Chaosrider2808]

Gomoto:

REALLY??? OK, you may suck me into this AI stuff after all. Where can I download it? Or is it strictly on-line?

Mike:

Sorry, I'm getting lost in the acronyms. MCTS = ??

I've only dimly poked at the MFG "Why?" feature, but unless I can find a way to increase the font size in the MFG "comment" window, it's a feature that will be useless to me. If there's a way to change that font size, I would very much like to know what it is! I've poked around the MFG help menu a fair amount, but it appears silent on the issue.

My 3 kyu comment about the possible MFG capability was picked up from some other folks here. If it can play 1 dan, it will last even longer for me. My objective is to reach Shodan by the first of the year. My current assessment is that this will be difficult for me, but entirely achievable with sufficient attention.

Thanks to both of you for your help and indulgence!



TCS

[Mike Novack]

MCTS = Monte Carlo Tree Search.

Look, you say you have MFOG 12 (what are you running it on that you have trouble with font size?)

What I suggest if you want to learn from it and are now around 9 kyu
a) Set it to 6 kyu and take 3 stones. See what happens. The 6 kyu level is just the rule based AI by itself, plays solidly but not aggressive enough. If you are winning more than half the time, try 2 stones.
b) When you get to that point (win > 50% at two stones) try setting it to the 3 kyu level and take 4 stones. Try to work your way down to 2 stones.
c) If you get there, set it to 1 dan and take 3 stones. If you get to 2 stones, you will need a strongfer program.

The idea is that you want the computer opponent to be significantly stronger than you are but not too much stronger.

[pnprog]

REALLY??? OK, you may suck me into this AI stuff after all. Where can I download it? Or is it strictly on-line?

Haha, welcome to the new world of Go, things have changed so much since one year

First, you should have a look at the existing offer in term of Go programs: https://www.reddit.com/r/cbaduk/comment ... _software/ (include description and links)

Seeing that you are SDK level, I would suggest instead that you Go for the "Legacy Leela" (Leela is the Go program that LeelaZero is based on). Leela has the advantage to play 9x9 and 13x13 as well, and might be a bit more accurate in close yose for 6.5pt komi. She also should play much better on handicap games. Leela is especially recommended if your intend to use it on a not so new laptop. She comes with her own interface in an easy to install way.

Then, if you are using a somewhat semi decent desktop computer (one that has a GPU), then you have plenty of options, considering you are still not dan level:

• Leela Zero is currently the strongest bot. Even more so when running the ELF weights from Facebook. Limitations: 19x19 only, chinese rules, 7.5pt komi
• AQ is also pro strength, apparently used by Japanese pro players on their server for training. Limitations: Nvidia GPU, 19x19, japanese rules, 6.5pt komi
• Ray, in is RLO version, more or less the same limitation with LeelaZero. Also use ELF weights

The above bots may be hard to install and set up. Check out the list above, some programs package it directly to make this process easier.

I was also a fan of MFoG, but clearly, commercial Go program is just dead now. I can't find any reason one would purchase MFoG, Zen or CrazyStones nowadays.

[Chaosrider2808]

Mike:

I say that I have MFOG 12...because that's what the program tells me that I have! However, I know it's out of date. I can't find confirmation if my purchase (which was a long time ago), but the author/owner was kind enough to give me an access code for what I have. He asked that I not download the update until he can confirm my purchase, so I haven't.

I'm running it on a 2013 Toshiba laptop, which at the time was near the top of the "middle tier" of options available. It's hard to see that to be a problem, since it's newer than the program version I have! It has fine garden variety graphics, but I didn't buy it as a graphics machine. I need to buy a new computer for my genealogical work on Ancestry anyway, and enhanced graphics capability is one of the requirements, but that won't happen soon.

Is the text font size adjustable in MFoG?

I like your 6 kyu/3 stone suggestion for MFoG a lot. I'll definitely try that!

pnprog:

"Legacy Leela" sounds like a good option. I very much like the option to play 9 x 9 or 13 x 13. Can you set it to run Japanese rules? That's all I've ever played, so I want to stick with that for at least a while. Unless the differences are trivial.

Interesting observation about commercial Go programs. In retrospect, that was foreseeable, but I didn't foresee it!

Thanks to you both!



TCS

[pnprog]

"Legacy Leela" sounds like a good option. I very much like the option to play 9 x 9 or 13 x 13. Can you set it to run Japanese rules? That's all I've ever played, so I want to stick with that for at least a while. Unless the differences are trivial

Yes, with a 2013 mid tier laptop, I think you have to go for the Legacy Leela, the CPU version. I am still confident it can outplay MFoG

Differences between Japanese rules and Chinese rules are trivial, as long as you play all the dame points at the end of the game. The final score might be 0.5pt different if the komi is 6.5pt instead of 7.5pt