It is currently Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:49 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #1 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:45 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.

(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]



Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #2 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:11 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8878
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #3 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:11 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 340
Liked others: 302
Was liked: 170
Gomoto wrote:
I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.
(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)


In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #4 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:58 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 8878
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
sorin wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
I like to approach 3-4 early. I just wanted to keep book of how I deal with black responses.
(White approaches 3-4 at move 6.)


In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?


Moi wrote:
Tenuki is always an option.
;)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #5 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:26 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 423
Liked others: 182
Was liked: 187
So you are preparing against a number of local :b7: responses to your approach, but not to black playing a double approach in the bottom left, which is the most common pro response? Your opponent may also tenuki. :lol:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #6 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:04 am 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8672
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2008
GD Posts: 312
Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #7 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:57 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
Quote:
Calvin Clarke: So you are preparing against a number of local :b7: responses to your approach, but not to black playing a double approach in the bottom left, which is the most common pro response? Your opponent may also tenuki. :lol:


That is the basic idea. The approach to 3-4 is better than defending against the double approach. THe black double approach is what white hopes for:


Attachments:
ap1.jpg
ap1.jpg [ 155.32 KiB | Viewed 2446 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #8 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:08 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
Quote:
Sorin: In the SGF variations above, how did you decide when tenuki is possible and when it is not?


I used ELF to evaluate the variations. (Not the first move only).

The sgf variations are just a simplified overview of my preferred choices. (Sometimes there are more options. But I prefer tenuki if possible.)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #9 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:09 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
Quote:
Bill: Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:


I played like this in the past. But I can not support this style with the current AI opinions. ;-)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #10 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:12 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
Quote:
EdLee: Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


Attachments:
ap2.jpg
ap2.jpg [ 157.49 KiB | Viewed 2442 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #11 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:05 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8878
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
Gomoto wrote:
Quote:
Bill: Move 6? :o

Move 2, now that's early. :rambo:


I played like this in the past.


So did humans a few hundred years ago (with no komi). It went out of favor, but even when I was learning go Takagawa mentioned it as a possibility.

Quote:
But I can not support this style with the current AI opinions. ;-)


Go Seigen in his 21st Century Go series recommends the 2 space high approach at move 2, even receiving komi.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re:
Post #12 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:18 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8878
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
EdLee wrote:
Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


According to AlphaGoTeach ( https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com ), AlphaGo has played the keima in the bottom right corner (winrate 45.4% after 10,000,000 simulations) and the one space high pincer there (44.2%). It also mentions 2 human moves, the 2 space high pincer in the bottom right corner (44.8%) and the double approach in the bottom left corner (42.8%). I think we have to rate the double approach as questionable.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #13 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:13 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8672
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2008
GD Posts: 312
Hi Bill,
Quote:
I think we have to rate the double approach as questionable.
One human interpretation may be that given this position, the bot evaluates that approaching an open 3-4 is more efficient than double-approaching an open 4-4. ( Thus one of many different properties of an open 3-4 v. an open 4-4. )

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #14 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:42 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 423
Liked others: 182
Was liked: 187
Gomoto wrote:
Quote:
EdLee: Hi Gomoto, Calvin,

For :b7:, what are the bots' top candidates ?


LZ 0.15, Elf V1 weights:

Attachment:
elfv1tenukiapproach.png
elfv1tenukiapproach.png [ 702.92 KiB | Viewed 2348 times ]


About the same in terms of move choice. Not sure why Gomoto's is showing black ahead for some responses.

While the double approach in this position may fall of out favor in time, I'll be the first to admit that my opponents frequently beat me despite playing 'questionable' moves and I suspect pros experience this as well. :D

One can't relax just because your opponent gets suckered into the 'inferior' double approach, because without the right response, any advantage is quickly lost.

For example, if white responds with the diagonal, black is back to leading:

Attachment:
SimpleAndSlow.png
SimpleAndSlow.png [ 807.54 KiB | Viewed 2346 times ]


The same happens if white jumps to take a 3-3 now:

Attachment:
AlreadyBehind.png
AlreadyBehind.png [ 791.86 KiB | Viewed 2346 times ]


Last edited by Calvin Clark on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #15 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:09 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 423
Liked others: 182
Was liked: 187
For those who are curious, this is the evaluation after the black double approach. Which attachment would you have played? Or would you have played something else?

Attachment:
TheRightAttach.png
TheRightAttach.png [ 808.72 KiB | Viewed 2345 times ]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #16 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:07 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
(I am a ELF v0 fanboy. That is what I used)

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #17 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:23 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 1168
Location: Earth
Liked others: 385
Was liked: 189
Quote:
Calvin Clark: One can't relax just because your opponent gets suckered into the 'inferior' double approach, because without the right response, any advantage is quickly lost.


That is for sure. I just like to take the initiative as soon as possible. I like the 3-4 approach because it feels like an active move. I dont want to play blacks game.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: How to use an early approach to 3-4
Post #18 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:37 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 8878
Liked others: 2651
Was liked: 3016
Calvin Clark wrote:
For those who are curious, this is the evaluation after the black double approach. Which attachment would you have played? Or would you have played something else?


AlphaGo plays the press in the bottom right corner (41.1% Black winrate at 10,000,000 simulations). Each jump attachment to one of the double approach stones in the bottom left corner is an alternative, with a Black winrate of 41.6%.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:

At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?

— Winona Adkins

I think it's a great idea to talk during sex, as long as it's about snooker.

— Steve Davis

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group