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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1341 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Kirby wrote:
I still have reservations about speaking with my wife in Korean, even though that would be helpful. Somehow, I have too much pride for that. A personal fault, i guess.


When I was living in Tokyo I knew a couple with an American husband and a Japanese wife. He spoke to her in broken Japanese and she spoke to him in broken English. ;)

There is actually a theory behind that, which is that we are in general better at guessing what people mean in our own language than speaking clearly in a foreign language. :) (IMO, or in our own language, as far as that goes. :lol:)

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Post #1342 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Agree with that - interesting story.

In our case, my wife has neither broken English nor broken Korean (pretty decent at Japanese, too) :-)

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Post #1343 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Hi Kirby,

Thanks for explaining. The mentality does make a big deal difference.
If it's coming from a place of helping each other ( improve, etc. ), it's a very different feeling and environment indeed.

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Post #1344 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:06 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Hi Kirby,

Thanks for explaining. The mentality does make a big deal difference.
If it's coming from a place of helping each other ( improve, etc. ), it's a very different feeling and environment indeed.


Hrm - I think she has good intentions and wants to help me. It's just that I have nothing to teach her when it comes to language, so the one-sided nature of the instruction makes me apprehensive to appreciate the gesture.

Maybe I feel inferior in some ways?

On the other hand, if it's a total stranger, I have less apprehension.

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Post #1345 Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Hi Kirby,

That's interesting... :)

There's an ancient saying, attributed to Confucius: 三人行,必有我師焉。

I can see how a total stranger can make a difference.

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Post #1346 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:04 am 
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Cool, Ed. I had to look that up. I guess in korean it might be 삼인행 필유아사언 using those characters.

My interpretation is something like, "if there's three people walking down the road, one of them must be my teacher"... maybe something about teaching one another?

Can you provide a better translation? I guess I could ask my wife when I get home, but we already discussed that dilemma :-)

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Post #1347 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Quote:
if there's three people walking down the road, one of them must be my teacher
Yes; today it's almost a certainty one can learn something from anyone.
( Back then it was way before industrialization and specialization. :) )

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Post #1348 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:23 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
if there's three people walking down the road, one of them must be my teacher
Yes; today it's almost a certainty one can learn something from anyone.
( Back then it was way before industrialization and specialization. :) )


It's a good point. I don't learn from people enough. On one hand, I think it's a strength to lean toward independent thinking (though, in reality, I still often imitate others' thought processes). It's served me well in many cases - I probably wouldn't have gone to college if I just followed advice from the adults around me growing up.

On the other hand, I'm limited in perspective and growth, because the default assumption is that the person I'm listening to is overlooking something, or maybe if they're devious, trying to trick me in some way.

Dunno.

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Post #1349 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:26 am 
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A big difference with Confucius' time is that nowadays, we have a much easier access to information through books, softwares or the internet. I know a European guy who decided to learn chinese by himself (he was in his forties). Five years of hard work after he was able to speak and write fluently, and had a decent accent, although not perfect of course.

Nevertheless, a teacher can often speed up the process by showing you the correct path.

Concerning languages: western people learning asian languages are usually in a comfortable situation, as they are usually praised for making the effort, even if they make mistakes. The converse is not true, as everybody is expected to learn English.

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Post #1350 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:41 am 
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jlt wrote:
Concerning languages: western people learning asian languages are usually in a comfortable situation, as they are usually praised for making the effort, even if they make mistakes. The converse is not true, as everybody is expected to learn English.

For many western people, English is a foreign language too. Sure, English is closer to French or German than Chinese or Japanese, but it's still not trivial.

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Post #1351 Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:00 am 
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jlt wrote:
Concerning languages: western people learning asian languages are usually in a comfortable situation, as they are usually praised for making the effort, even if they make mistakes.


In my experience, this is mostly true. I'd say I'm still judged based on my appearance when I first meet or speak with someone from Korea or Japan, but overall, folks are pretty welcoming of speech in their native language.

On the other hand, I am also welcoming of broken English, and focus on communication, so I wouldn't say it's not reciprocal.

Individual experiences may vary..

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Post #1352 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Went to Ann Arbor go club today. This week I've only been studying korean, so I didn't do any problems or anything like that.

After work, I ate at a korean bbq place and practiced speaking.

Then I went to the go club.

I probably played like 12 blitz games with Don, giving him 6 stones each time. I won them all, except for the last one before closing.

The 5d guy that beat me at 4 stones the other time came again. I played him again at 4 stones and got revenge. I just got solid territory at the beginning and kept things simple.

He might not be actually 5d. My feeling is I could probably have a decent chance at 2 stones. I'll challenge him with a lower handicap next time.

Anyway, not studying go right now, so I won't bother with transcribing it.

This week was a good week.

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Post #1353 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Quote:
I probably played like 12 blitz games with Don, giving him 6 stones each time. I won them all, except for the last one before closing.
And neither of you thought about changing the handi after 10 straight wins ? :) Perhaps 50/50 at 9 stones.

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Post #1354 Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:46 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Quote:
I probably played like 12 blitz games with Don, giving him 6 stones each time. I won them all, except for the last one before closing.
And neither of you thought about changing the handi after 10 straight wins ? :) Perhaps 50/50 at 9 stones.


I just play whatever he wants to do. I have beat him at 8 before. Today, he wanted to do 6. If he wants to play even, I'll do that too.

At the club, Don and I are kind of friends, and we'll just play quickly- I don't care about the result much. If it's someone else, I'll be taking my time more.

If you're ever at the club in Ann Arbor and meet Don, you might understand the dynamic. He's an interesting character.

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Post #1355 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:31 pm 
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Go club today. Played Don a few times, then a guy named Greg.

He said he was about 1d, so we did nigiri.

I was black, and won by capturing his group. This is the approximate game from my memory:


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Post #1356 Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Actually looking at the game, we had j6 l4 exchange earlier (I had j6), so that was helpful in capturing his group.

I have a few moves wrong, but this was the gist of it.

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Post #1357 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:23 pm 
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Inseong sent out an email advertisement for the AYD. I've been turned off on go since last fall. Probably the last serious game I played was last year at the Cotsen. Since around December, I've been focusing on studying Korean. We go to a Korean school on Saturdays, and I actually participated in a speech contest two Saturdays ago. I won the adult division, so I will do the state competition this Saturday.

Given all of that, when I read Inseong's email, for the first time in a long time, I felt like I missed playing go. I was getting frustrated last year, but at least for now, I feel that go brings enjoyment to my life. Also, last year I was depressed about not going to the US Go Congress, and it'll probably be the same again this year, if I don't go. So I decided all at once that I'd give go another go, and sign up for the AYD. I'll switch to studying go for awhile, and I'll go to the US Go Congress. It's fun for me for now, so why not?

So here is the game from today:


I lost the game, and left my own review, before listening to Inseong or consulting any sort of AI. As you can see, I'm quite rusty, but I'd like to polish up.

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Post #1358 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:28 pm 
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Biggest takeaway from my own review was that I shouldn't have kept pushing:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . B O . . . . X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead, maybe something like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 59
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O B . . . X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


---

I heard an interview recently, though, and they mentioned Kasparov. One thing that he mentioned was that, when he reviews his games, he tries to review not a specific move, but *why* he made the bad move - his thought process, etc.

So what was my thought process here?

1.) I was a little flustered, because white tenuki'd so many times - on the bottom, and top left. It was painful. So I thought I should compensate by making big territory by trying to kill the group.

- So what's the takeaway from this?
a.) Maybe I should have taken initiative to tenuki before white.
b.) After white got those moves, maybe I should have focused on just being thick - stop the attack if I can't profit. At least black would still have been weak, and maybe I'd get a chance later.

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Post #1359 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Inseong reviewed my game. A couple of takeaways from his perspective:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 38 to 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The move above was a bit passive. He likes cap better:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 38 to 38
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . B . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Why didn't I do this?
- Thought process: maybe I thought it'd be enough to just put pressure. Maybe my thinking was wrong in that white's tenuki's were more valuable than I thought.

---
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 33 to 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Inseong thought this wasn't big enough - pretty passive, again.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 33 to 33
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


He suggests this better - at least I get profit first.

---
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 81 to 81
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . X , X 1 . . . , X O O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . X X X . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X O X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O O O O O . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I totally missed just connecting here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 81 to 81
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . X O . . . O . |
$$ | . O O X . O . . . . . . X X O O O . O |
$$ | . . X , X . . . . , X O O O X X X O O |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . X X X . . X X X |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X O X |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . X . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . O O O O O . . X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X O . O , O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I "know" this shape, but I guess I didn't recognize it.

General takeaways:
- Make sure I'm playing in the big area. Attacking a group isn't always sente.
- If I do count on the attack, make it severe.

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it's be happy, not achieve happiness

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Post #1360 Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:37 pm 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8611
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do the state competition this Saturday.
Go, Kirby! :tmbup:
DeepLeela, a low-level bot, thinks your :b33: is totally fine, its first choice, 58% for :black: ; not game deciding:
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