BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Several comments.
As always, no guarantees.
Bill, thanks as always for the detailed comments. Your and Uberdude's comments about S6 and B6 instead of S5 and B5 were very helpful. I'd never played these moves before, but recalled them from a Lizzie review from a few months ago. Seems I didn't remember the sequence correctly. Bigger question, OC, is why I didn't immediately see my mistake and the correct move...
Two questions from your comments:
1. Here you recommend A instead of B due to the white wall. I played B to limit the value of the wall's influence. I'll also confess I *think* that I'm following Dwyrin's recommendation here in that he often plays moves like this when white has a wall in the area of this wall. But like with Lizzie, I could have easily misunderstood. Does A have a similar utility to B in this case that I don't see? I feel like I'm missing something, but don't see it clearly enough to formulate a question.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . X O X X . . |
$$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . X . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, the bots like "a".
But my understanding goes back to Sakata and Takagawa.
Takagawa in relation to "b". White's wall in the bottom right is alive in itself and does not require an extension on the right side. (The bots go further, often not extending from weaker walls.) My corollary: If White is not going to extend to "b", why should Black play there to prevent it. The idea that Black "b" "kills" the White influence is an amateur myth.
So in similar situations I used to play "c". In one of his books Sakata mentioned that "a" was also possible, in line with not approaching the opponent's strength. Since then "a" has become more popular than "c", not considered an extension so much as an enclosure. It is definitely more solid. Even after Black "a" White can approach the top right corner from the right side -- after "c" White freely approaches the corner from the right side, and after "b" White often invades --, so the right side is not exactly no man's land in the opening, but it is not exciting at this point. Furthermore, the Black enclosure with "a" exerts influence on the top side, working with the top left stone.
Quote:
2. I do not understand this move. I see that it extends black's group on the right further into the center, but since black can make life on the side, I'm guessing that there is some larger strategic value here. I kind of see that this exerts control over the triangle area, but to me, white's triangle stones would seem to make building territory there hard.
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . O X . . X . X . . O X . |
$$ | . O . X . X . O O X X . X . X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O X O X O O X X . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . O . O X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X . B X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . Q Q X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . T T T . . Q X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . Q X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . O . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . X . . O . O O O O . |
$$ | . X X X O X . . . . . X . X O X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X . X . . . . . X . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Yeah, this is not easy to understand. It helps to have experience with turns and in particular with central turns. Even turns on the third and fourth lines did not seem that big to me as an SDK, but, having read that they were good, I tried them out in my own games and was pleased with the results. Central turns are also surprisingly big, even in the opening. I saw them in games by players like Fujisawa Hideyuki (AKA Shuko), Go Seigen, and Takagawa.
Yes, Black made small life on the right side, but small life is an unworthy goal as a rule, even after move 100. Korschelt was the second go book I owned (the first being Lasker), so even as a triple digit kyu I followed the
one eye and access to the center rule of thumb and had a lot of experience making life in the center. So to me
was kind of obvious. But that really relies upon my experience, more or less summed up with "bigger than it looks" and "easy life".
As for territory, suppose that White had a stone at
. Then Black on the right would be scrambling for life and Black's potential for territory in the center would be greatly reduced, not only towards the bottom side, but also towards the upper left.
From your play and comments it is plain that you think of making life on the side. But Murase Shuho (and I) say, don't forget the center.
Edit: I should add, I have a lot of experience with
not making life in the center.