It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:43 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 790 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 40  Next

Who will win?
EGF pros 69%  69%  [ 40 ]
AGA pros 22%  22%  [ 13 ]
Don't know 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 58
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #601 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:05 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 14
Rank: FFG 5k
mhlepore wrote:
1) As an American, I am very sorry for Mateusz, and the European team deserves to be 4-0. I believe I can say this and simultaneously hold the opinion that a rematch was the fairest option.

2) To those saying this is an easy fix, we can resume just for this one game, no need to worry about slippery slopes, and it won't require referees to have plans in place for other contingencies (e.g., obvious misclicks, less than obvious misclicks), I hope you are right.

3) This is the most divisive thread I have ever read on L19 where trolls were not involved. It has gone beyond bouncing ideas around and has become pretty hard to read.

I know its post-truth and fake news era, but please lying like this is disgusting.
Hard to read so much lies.
Nobody say we have to resume just for this game or don't require referee to have plans in place.
We say "resume the game is better in general" and decision "rematch or resume the game" is independant of the choice to adopt new rules.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #602 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:30 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1494
Liked others: 111
Was liked: 315
Let's be careful about what we admit into evidence here in our kangaroo court.
HKA wrote:
This is a horrible situation. But, from what I have seen, Mr. Surma did not lose because of the American's protest. He lost because his "flag" fell, and he refused a rematch.
Totally agree, it is a horrible situation. But is it publicly stated that he categorically refused a rematch? I understood that he submitted a protest to the rematch decision. It appears somebody else also protested against the rematch decision. If MS really lodged an appeal with the explicit statement that he does not accept a rematch written in it, that would really put matters in a very different light. I think the rematch was the best worst option, and so does George.

To return to another point.
AGATournamentRegulations2014 wrote:
Clock malfunction. A player who suspects a clock has malfunctioned must notify the TD or ATD at once, and not continue play until the TD or ATD directs. A player may not escape the consequences of running out of time by claiming a clock malfunction earlier in the round which was never brought to the TD's attention
The AGA guidelines do not suggest that you should be punished for what you did in earlier games in a competition. They only talk about the current game [the round] and they also talk about notifying the TD at once. I understand that the TD wasn't there to be notified. I also, from experience, don't find netlag to be a constant thing. The AGA guidelines were not in force of course.

What rules do people think would be good to put in place for the remainder of the competition?
I think that there should be a referee present during the games. I think that we can handle netlag in byoyomi. A proctor can watch the clock in overtime. If he clearly sees a loss of a byoyomi period, and the player stops the clock to protest [exits the game] then the referee can direct his opponent to return a byoyomi period [Add 1 minute]. I think this is a fair bodge, as far as bodges go.

_________________
North Lecale

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #603 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:43 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2408
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 359
Was liked: 1019
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
I have posted very emotionally about this myself but since the EGF players have decided to move on, so have I.
I can't decide for the rest of you but maybe it's time to put this discussion to rest and return to the more positively enthralling happenings in Go.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 3 people: Bonobo, dfan, Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #604 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:02 am 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
With my admin hat half on, I wonder if come this Sunday (when the next game Eric Lui 1p vs Ali Jabrain 2p is due to be played, but still no public announcement about new rules) we should split off the lag/time/referee discussion to a separate thread so this one can focus on the rest of the match, or perhaps just make a new one seeing as I don't fancy selecting 550 checkboxes!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #605 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:10 am 
Dies with sente

Posts: 102
Liked others: 13
Was liked: 33
Rank: kgs 2d
Please close this thread!

A loss on time is always frustrating, especially when you're ahead (as I know from experience). But a decision has been made, life isn't fair sometimes, get over it. The best thing you can do in that situation is just to start a new game.

Mistakes have been made, well that's ok, we can learn from them. When the win is on the line we do strange things, we're human after all. That's ok too, even Hikaru struggled with the same thing :)

To the people bashing the organizers: Shame on you!

Go is (and probably always will be) a niche in the west and everyone investing his free time (often unpaid) and energy into creating events like this in the first place deserves our full support. They don't owe us anything, on the contrary: we owe them a great deal! If you think you're so much cleverer please organize some events yourself and see for yourself what that entails.

The Go community likes to think of itself as somehow more enlightened than other people but as 30+ pages of petty bickering show, this is clearly not the case.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #606 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:31 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 14
Rank: FFG 5k
Would be easier to move on, if some people stop to repeat lies.
Loss by disconnection is not a classic loss by time.
When i see lies like this, i don't feel we are learning from past.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #607 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:04 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2408
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 359
Was liked: 1019
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Fenring wrote:
Would be easier to move on, if some people stop to repeat lies.
Loss by disconnection is not a classic loss by time.
When i see lies like this, i don't feel we are learning from past.


It would help if you don't call a difference of opinion a lie. We're on the same side of the sympathy but I wouldn't call those who differ "liars". When engaging in a discussion, you must think your opponents in the debate are sane people. If you don't, stay out of it (like I won't engage in a flat earth discussion). If you do, then acknowledge their point of view and try to convince them otherwise (or be convinced of their POV(*)). If that doesn't work, time to move on.

(*) This is another key element often missing in (online) debate. The willingness by principle, to be convinced of the opposite viewpoint. Many people engage in a discussion to either prove the others wrong, or move on. The 3rd option should be there, or else by symmetry no discussion would ever resolve in an agreement.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 2 people: dfan, Kirby
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #608 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:40 am 
Dies in gote

Posts: 66
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 14
Rank: FFG 5k
Knotwilg wrote:
Fenring wrote:
Would be easier to move on, if some people stop to repeat lies.
Loss by disconnection is not a classic loss by time.
When i see lies like this, i don't feel we are learning from past.


It would help if you don't call a difference of opinion a lie. We're on the same side of the sympathy but I wouldn't call those who differ "liars". When engaging in a discussion, you must think your opponents in the debate are sane people. If you don't, stay out of it (like I won't engage in a flat earth discussion). If you do, then acknowledge their point of view and try to convince them otherwise (or be convinced of their POV(*)). If that doesn't work, time to move on.

(*) This is another key element often missing in (online) debate. The willingness by principle, to be convinced of the opposite viewpoint. Many people engage in a discussion to either prove the others wrong, or move on. The 3rd option should be there, or else by symmetry no discussion would ever resolve in an agreement.

I totally agree, but when a argument,already proven as wrong 3times, is reused, for me it is like a lie.
The alternative is to think he is not lying but too stupid to understand.
I have higher expectations for go players.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #609 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:10 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
In general, it is difficult to change your opinion about something you care strongly about, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. One form of this is known as the “Backfire Effect” - I posted about this earlier.

The basic idea is, when presented with new research or evidence that is contrary to a belief you agree strong with, you are more likely to reinforce your original belief (“eh, that point has these flaws; their research is insufficient”) than to change your original opinion. I am certainly guilty of this.

Perhaps it’s paradoxical, but with more facts and information in the advent of the Internet, in some ways, folks are not more connected but rather more divided.

That is, if you believe in the backfire effect. If you previously had a strong opinion to the contrary, I’m sure this reasoning seems flawed :-)

[1] https://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10 ... re-effect/

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: Knotwilg
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #610 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 4:47 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Kirby wrote:
Laurent wrote:
Kirby wrote:
Ok. IMO, the issue is more polarizing than clear cut - almost like politics or religion.
Yes, unfortunately, though I would rather call it a "fairness vs formalism" thing.


Meh - I think the ruling was fair. You don't. Let's repeat our opinions for another 30 posts or so :-)


Bill Spight wrote:
It is fair for players to play under conditions of contest that they have accepted, unless the conditions are set up ahead of time to favor one side or the other. In this case, the KGS clock kept the official time, and that was known to all, and so losing on time by the KGS clock was fair.


Many years ago I read a short book about teaching by a man who had been a master at an English boys' boarding school. About fairness, he made the interesting comment that headmasters are never right about fairness, masters are sometimes right about fairness, and boys are always right about fairness. :)

By analogy we may say that players are always right about fairness. To me that would mean that there is a higher standard of fairness than abiding by impartial conditions of contest. That is, no player should lose a game because of conditions beyond their control. OC, that is an ideal. For instance, a player may have to forfeit because of a traffic accident.

In this case, the organizers, in their naiveté, made KGS the official timekeeper, and the players, in their naiveté, accepted those conditions. Doing so meant that, sooner or later, someone was going to lose a game because of netlag, which would violate that higher standard of fairness.

As we say where I come from, that's a helluva way to run a railroad. But the organizers are drafting new conditions of contest, which I hope will be such that netlag is never an issue. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #611 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:38 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 445
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 37
Kirby wrote:
In general, it is difficult to change your opinion about something you care strongly about, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. One form of this is known as the “Backfire Effect” - I posted about this earlier.

The basic idea is, when presented with new research or evidence that is contrary to a belief you agree strong with, you are more likely to reinforce your original belief (“eh, that point has these flaws; their research is insufficient”) than to change your original opinion.

A very reasonable behaviour. Normally, strong beliefs are formed on the grounds of strong and wide evidence, so when something new comes to light that contradicts that it is simply more likely that there is something wrong with the new info than with the original theory.

The problem is not that people are too slow to change opinions - the problem is (some) people are too quick to form opinions to begin with! :)


Bill Spight wrote:
In this case, the organizers, in their naiveté, made KGS the official timekeeper, and the players, in their naiveté, accepted

If this would be true the case would have been very clear from the beginning, without the need for a week before a decision, without changing the decision several times, and without a rematch option ever offered to be refused. And of course, without any meaning of notifying the referee about the earler 1-2s lag.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #612 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:44 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
jann wrote:
Kirby wrote:
In general, it is difficult to change your opinion about something you care strongly about, even when presented with evidence to the contrary. One form of this is known as the “Backfire Effect” - I posted about this earlier.

The basic idea is, when presented with new research or evidence that is contrary to a belief you agree strong with, you are more likely to reinforce your original belief (“eh, that point has these flaws; their research is insufficient”) than to change your original opinion.

A very reasonable behaviour. Normally, strong beliefs are formed on the grounds of strong and wide evidence, so when something new comes to light that contradicts that it is simply more likely that there is something wrong with the new info than with the original theory.


Would it be an accurate representation of your opinion here to say, “If your belief is strong, the other guy is probably wrong”?

_________________
be immersed


This post by Kirby was liked by: yakcyll
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #613 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:44 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
jann wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
In this case, the organizers, in their naiveté, made KGS the official timekeeper, and the players, in their naiveté, accepted

If this would be true the case would have been very clear from the beginning, without the need for a week before a decision, without changing the decision several times, and without a rematch option ever offered to be refused. And of course, without any meaning of notifying the referee about the earler 1-2s lag.


The muddled decision process was, IMHO, a result of their naiveté.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Top
 Profile  
 
Online
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #614 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 2:33 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 445
Liked others: 0
Was liked: 37
Kirby wrote:
jann wrote:
Normally, strong beliefs are formed on the grounds of strong and wide evidence, so when something new comes to light that contradicts that it is simply more likely that there is something wrong with the new info than with the original theory.

Would it be an accurate representation of your opinion here to say, “If your belief is strong, the other guy is probably wrong”?

Or rather "if your belief is strong, you need similarly or not stronger evidence to change it".

Your example sounded like about strong existing theory vs. single new counter evidence or data point - which unsurprisingly meet doubts in science or in general.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #615 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:55 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
jann wrote:
Kirby wrote:
jann wrote:
Normally, strong beliefs are formed on the grounds of strong and wide evidence, so when something new comes to light that contradicts that it is simply more likely that there is something wrong with the new info than with the original theory.

Would it be an accurate representation of your opinion here to say, “If your belief is strong, the other guy is probably wrong”?

Or rather "if your belief is strong, you need similarly or not stronger evidence to change it".

Your example sounded like about strong existing theory vs. single new counter evidence or data point - which unsurprisingly meet doubts in science or in general.


You can read the linked article if you'd like - it'll provide some examples. One of the examples in the article is the idea of spanking kids for punishment. There is research on all sides of the spectrum, ranging from saying that spanking is very bad and should never be done as a means of punishment to saying that spanking is a good way to discipline kids. Typically individuals already have an opinion on the matter, and even when presented with significant evidence of a differing viewpoint, folks rarely change their minds.

I do not advocate changing opinions wildly upon hearing the smallest evidence of a differing viewpoint. But at the same time, even large amounts of evidence typically just reinforce one's own original opinions - at least according to the backfire effect.

Anyway, I'm really just trying to say that it's difficult to change one's mind about something - even when one thinks they're being objective, they're often not. Probably part of being human.

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #616 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:27 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6725
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 436
Was liked: 3719
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Quote:
SCHEDULE UPDATE
There will be no game this Sunday (May 26). The 5th round will take place on June 2nd, 20:00 CEST / 14:00 US EDT. For later rounds schedule, please refer to the tournament website at https://transatlanticgo.org/

Hopefully this means there is a serious effort at making new rules and they don't want to rush into the next game as scheduled without them.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: Bonobo, Joaz Banbeck
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #617 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:15 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 57
Location: Zapadlá Lhota
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 18
GD Posts: 50
Let's be clear we now have public statements by Mr. Surma that he refused a rematch.
...But, from what I have seen, Mr. Surma did not lose because of the American's protest. He lost because his "flag" fell, and he refused a rematch.
By a PM I asked HKA to explain his source of this information.



jann wrote:
Your example sounded like about strong existing theory vs. single new counter evidence or data point - which unsurprisingly meet doubts in science or in general.
I believe in this situation people's thinking is based on intuition and feelings, which depend on their genetic settings. Don't expect much of impartial way of thinking here.
edit: of course, their thinking may be based on even simpler pattern: "I want that Mateusz/Eric wins."

The substance of one-sided thinking is the fact that people
- tend to persistently question any input that don't match their view
- tend to easily accept any information that backs their view, even if the information is not verified: notice this happened with the HKA's statement too.


Last edited by k0n0 on Tue May 21, 2019 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #618 Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 9:20 pm 
Honinbo

Posts: 10905
Liked others: 3651
Was liked: 3374
Uberdude wrote:
Quote:
SCHEDULE UPDATE
There will be no game this Sunday (May 26). The 5th round will take place on June 2nd, 20:00 CEST / 14:00 US EDT. For later rounds schedule, please refer to the tournament website at https://transatlanticgo.org/

Hopefully this means there is a serious effort at making new rules and they don't want to rush into the next game as scheduled without them.


Yes, I was hoping that there would be a delay. It takes time to craft new conditions of contest that are acceptable all around. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.


This post by Bill Spight was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #619 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:48 am 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2408
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Liked others: 359
Was liked: 1019
Rank: KGS 2d OGS 1d Fox 4d
KGS: Artevelde
OGS: Knotwilg
Online playing schedule: UTC 18:00 - 22:00
Kirby wrote:
Anyway, I'm really just trying to say that it's difficult to change one's mind about something - even when one thinks they're being objective, they're often not. Probably part of being human.


Whether one actually change's one's mind is one thing. What I find important is to go into a debate with the willingness by principle to be convinced otherwise. If I don't do that, I see no point in debate, because I expect a similar attitude by the others. Many debates are governed by people who have no such willingness whatsoever and use the debate merely as a magnifier for their opinions (disguised as facts).

I reacted on a post which stated that "calling losing by connection failure a loss by time, is a lie". The whole discussion here however shows that this is arguable and a matter of opinion not of truth. It's one of the key arguments in the debate, next to the alleged lack of sportsmanship and derived arguments such as the professionalism of the organization.

If you engage in a discussion where the central argument is - in your opinion - a matter of fact, upon which you have no intention to change your mind, then it is rather pointless. This is why I mentioned the flat earth discussion: I have never entered a debate on that topic, because I consider the spheroidal shape of the earth a fact, not open for debate.

That doesn't mean I have no strong opinion on non-factual matters. In this debate for example, I still think it's unfair Mateusz has lost and I still think the AGA squad has been very unsportsmanlike, but through Bill's arguments I have gained more appreciation for the referee's decision.


This post by Knotwilg was liked by 3 people: dfan, Tryss, yakcyll
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: EGF vs AGA pros win-and-continue match
Post #620 Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:09 am 
Honinbo

Posts: 9545
Liked others: 1600
Was liked: 1711
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Knotwilg wrote:
Whether one actually change's one's mind is one thing. What I find important is to go into a debate with the willingness by principle to be convinced otherwise.


I think that's an admirable attitude. Similarly, I think a scientific approach to knowledge is to generally be skeptical of what you believe that you know, and try regularly to prove oneself wrong.

As a human, though, this can be challenging, especially for a topic one cares about. I've read that these types of debates can prompt similar parts of the brain as are prompted in physical encounters (e.g. when somebody is getting into a fist fight). It's quite easy for me to get into an argument about go, since I identify as a go player. On the other hand, on a topic that's less personal to me, I'm more likely to take new information in as a way of learning. For example, I'm not a physicist, so if there were a debate about physics, I'd probably be easier to look at new information clearly and without as much bias.

Quote:
That doesn't mean I have no strong opinion on non-factual matters. In this debate for example, I still think it's unfair Mateusz has lost and I still think the AGA squad has been very unsportsmanlike, but through Bill's arguments I have gained more appreciation for the referee's decision.


Good for you. It's pure speculation on my part, but is it possible that your respect for Bill and/or prior relationship with him has influenced the filter through which you read the arguments?

_________________
be immersed

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 790 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 ... 40  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group