I've been thinking of the assessment bit a little bit more. I found this website: http://gustav.ml/counting
When it's in an endgame situation, I don't think I'm terrible at counting, necessarily. According to that site, I can usually get the right answer in around 40~60 seconds. I could improve speed, I suppose. But I feel like there's more to evaluation than just counting.
The evaluation of whether a result is good for black or white, for example. Part of it is the territory, and part of it is something else - intuition or an idea of how a particular shape, influence, or arrangement of stones... thickness. These types of concepts are hard to encapsulate in simply counting.
What I'm aiming for is a way to isolate this evaluation sub-skill of go in some way such that I can practice it. Bill's series where the AI thinks one side is ahead or behind might be a good start. Maybe I should get some collection of problems like this, and practice them more.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Another game on Fox. I tried the gospel, again. This heretic was crazy. Maybe that's not a nice way to put it... I was surprised by some of the moves.
Biggest takeaway here, I think, is just that I was too confident and answered here too quickly: I wouldn't even call it a misread, because I played on instinct and didn't read it. I think it's a reminder that I need to be careful, even when I've established some confidence.
Biggest takeaway here, I think, is just that I was too confident and answered here too quickly: I wouldn't even call it a misread, because I played on instinct and didn't read it. I think it's a reminder that I need to be careful, even when I've established some confidence.
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Shaddy
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Some exercises about position 3:
1. Suppose White gets the entire top as 3rd line territory and Black gets some whatever reduction stones. Who's ahead?
2. As above, but 4th line territory.
3. As above, but 5th line territory.
My evaluation:
Reconsider position 5 in this light. What have White and Black gained since position 3?
1. Suppose White gets the entire top as 3rd line territory and Black gets some whatever reduction stones. Who's ahead?
2. As above, but 4th line territory.
3. As above, but 5th line territory.
My evaluation:
Reconsider position 5 in this light. What have White and Black gained since position 3?
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
My evaluation is not as optimistic, and now I'm curious where my thought process differs from yours.Shaddy wrote:Some exercises about position 3:
1. Suppose White gets the entire top as 3rd line territory and Black gets some whatever reduction stones. Who's ahead?
2. As above, but 4th line territory.
3. As above, but 5th line territory.
My evaluation:
Reconsider position 5 in this light. What have White and Black gained since position 3?
Here's how I'd think about it:
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Shaddy
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
- The black group on the right is definitely worth more than 2 points.
- The bottom left corner will probably be Black's sente endgame, because White's weaker on the left.
- The white two stones on the right are going to be some kind of liability.
- Black has potential on the bottom and White doesn't.
- The top left corner is counted slightly better for White than it should be; if Black gets the 2-2 point, he gets 3 points and White loses 4 compared to your count; if White gets the 2-2 point she gets ... (1 1/3?) points and black loses 1.5.
The biggest thing is that the top is really all the points White is going to get this game. There'll be 5-6 points from the bottom left group, sure, but there's no other points on the board. Black has lots of areas to make more points.
- The bottom left corner will probably be Black's sente endgame, because White's weaker on the left.
- The white two stones on the right are going to be some kind of liability.
- Black has potential on the bottom and White doesn't.
- The top left corner is counted slightly better for White than it should be; if Black gets the 2-2 point, he gets 3 points and White loses 4 compared to your count; if White gets the 2-2 point she gets ... (1 1/3?) points and black loses 1.5.
The biggest thing is that the top is really all the points White is going to get this game. There'll be 5-6 points from the bottom left group, sure, but there's no other points on the board. Black has lots of areas to make more points.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Cool... Those points seem reasonable. How many points do you think the black group on the right might be worth, if more than 2?
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Sore throat today, so I didn't play at lunch. Also, I have an AYD game coming up in about 30 minutes anyway. Thought about canceling, but there's no guarantee my throat will be better later this week anyway. So I'll just try it.
Hopefully not COVID-19 :-p
I'll post here when the game is finished.
Hopefully not COVID-19 :-p
I'll post here when the game is finished.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
All I can say is that I got lucky here. Very, very lucky. My sore throat is gone, though, so that's good. Maybe it was psychological 
Gonna go check out Inseong's review for now... Way too much risk in this game.
Gonna go check out Inseong's review for now... Way too much risk in this game.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Some brief thoughts, while I'm waiting for review...
Position 1 The marked move above feels nice to play, but maybe against gospel. I wouldn't say the bottom is an *urgent* situation, so probably I should protect the 4-4: Position 2 Somehow, the result in the top left seems decent for black. It's hard to say that I came out ahead there even though I played first. Not really sure what's best there.
Position 3 I kind of regret attaching above... Maybe just jumping out is better: Position 4 My bumping move above doesn't seem good. I'm not sure what's best, but this seems better: After that, I got really lucky and killed a big group, but that was just because he didn't answer, I think.
Position 1 The marked move above feels nice to play, but maybe against gospel. I wouldn't say the bottom is an *urgent* situation, so probably I should protect the 4-4: Position 2 Somehow, the result in the top left seems decent for black. It's hard to say that I came out ahead there even though I played first. Not really sure what's best there.
Position 3 I kind of regret attaching above... Maybe just jumping out is better: Position 4 My bumping move above doesn't seem good. I'm not sure what's best, but this seems better: After that, I got really lucky and killed a big group, but that was just because he didn't answer, I think.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Skimmed through with KataGo, so I'll just focus on what appears to be the major points in the opening.
First: Seems true that I lost a lot with this slow move, above. Instead, one recommendation that I didn't think about is: Not exactly gospel, persay, but it seems like a nice move. And it's still not continuing locally, which seems to be a big problem with the move I played.
Also, here: One move that sticks out to KataGo didn't occur to me: I've seen this before, but it was off my radar during the game.
Finally... This trade seems to be a major problem. My thought is that this could sometimes work on other board positions, but here, the top is important.
Still waiting for Inseong's review. I'm last today.
First: Seems true that I lost a lot with this slow move, above. Instead, one recommendation that I didn't think about is: Not exactly gospel, persay, but it seems like a nice move. And it's still not continuing locally, which seems to be a big problem with the move I played.
Also, here: One move that sticks out to KataGo didn't occur to me: I've seen this before, but it was off my radar during the game.
Finally... This trade seems to be a major problem. My thought is that this could sometimes work on other board positions, but here, the top is important.
Still waiting for Inseong's review. I'm last today.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Inseong's review showed some of the many ways black could have easily won the game.
For me, his biggest point was this: I played the pincer because I felt behind. He agreed I was behind, but he said that I turn on this "switch" too quickly. He said to wait a little bit longer before turning that switch on. That might improve my chances that something will come my way.
For me, his biggest point was this: I played the pincer because I felt behind. He agreed I was behind, but he said that I turn on this "switch" too quickly. He said to wait a little bit longer before turning that switch on. That might improve my chances that something will come my way.
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topazg
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
This is very interesting to me. It's one of my biggest problems. It's made worse by the fact that I tend to count pessimistically (give myself slightly too few and my opponent slightly to many points when counting), so sometimes I turn on that switch when I'm not even behind.Kirby wrote:I played the pincer because I felt behind. He agreed I was behind, but he said that I turn on this "switch" too quickly. He said to wait a little bit longer before turning that switch on. That might improve my chances that something will come my way.
I haven't worked out yet how to psychologically prevent this. My desire not to fall into passivity is very strong!
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
( Hi, Graham! Welcome back. )
For me, I over estimate. I'll cruise through an even endgame, thinking that I'm ahead, then find that I lost by 3.5.
I try to compensate by fighting for every last point because I'm unsure. Then I find my opponent is offended because I piled on, fighting the 1/2 point ko when I was fifteen ahead.
For me, I over estimate. I'll cruise through an even endgame, thinking that I'm ahead, then find that I lost by 3.5.
I try to compensate by fighting for every last point because I'm unsure. Then I find my opponent is offended because I piled on, fighting the 1/2 point ko when I was fifteen ahead.
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
As much as I hate studying endgame (actually, I don’t know why that is; I majored in math as an undergrad, and I like numbers), maybe one way to psychology beat this would be to ramp up skill in the endgame. Then, in cases where I’m behind, there may be some source of psychological confidence: “Well... you’re ahead now, but we haven’t gotten to the strong part of my game”...topazg wrote:This is very interesting to me. It's one of my biggest problems. It's made worse by the fact that I tend to count pessimistically (give myself slightly too few and my opponent slightly to many points when counting), so sometimes I turn on that switch when I'm not even behind.Kirby wrote:I played the pincer because I felt behind. He agreed I was behind, but he said that I turn on this "switch" too quickly. He said to wait a little bit longer before turning that switch on. That might improve my chances that something will come my way.
I haven't worked out yet how to psychologically prevent this. My desire not to fall into passivity is very strong!
Not really sure, though, because this is obviously a problem I have yet to overcome.
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