Moonlight life and go rules

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:42 am

Bill Spight wrote: The Spight rules are not Japanese rules. An encore is not necessary to resolve any dispute about life and death. can pass.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X . O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

OK Bill, let's forget about the way to reach the position above.

In area counting the situation is clear. It follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X 1 O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | 3 . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

pass

pass

and if now black opens a dispute concerning black stone marked then the game continues by

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O 5 | $$ | X X O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O 7 | $$ | X . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

pass

The problem appears only with territory counting when black decides to disputes the status of the black stone marked

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White to play $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X . O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

Let's consider ONLY the Spight rules with territory counting.
What will be the result of the game (komi = 0.5)? Who will win?
Should white continue the game under "normal" play?
If white passes and black passes also then, how is handled the dispute concerning the status of the black marked stone?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:19 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote: The Spight rules are not Japanese rules. An encore is not necessary to resolve any dispute about life and death. can pass.

$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X . O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]
OK Bill, let's forget about the way to reach the position above.

In area counting the situation is clear. It follows:
$$B
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X 1 O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | 3 . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X 1 O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | 3 . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]
pass
pass

and if now black opens a dispute concerning black stone marked then the game continues by
$$W
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O 5 |
$$ | X X O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O 7 |
$$ | X . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O 5 | $$ | X X O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O 7 | $$ | X . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]
pass

The problem appears only with territory counting when black decides to disputes the status of the black stone marked

Don't confuse Japanese scoring with territory scoring. Modern Japanese scoring is one form of territory scoring.

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$W White to play
$$ ----------------
$$ | . O O X O O . |
$$ | X . O X O O B |
$$ | X X O X O O . |
$$ | . . O X O O O |
$$ | O O O X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O O |
$$ | . . . . X O . |
$$ -------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White to play $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X . O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]
Let's consider ONLY the Spight rules with territory counting.
What will be the result of the game (komi = 0.5)? Who will win?
Should white continue the game under "normal" play?
If white passes and black passes also then, how is handled the dispute concerning the status of the black marked stone?

That's not the most interesting question for Spight rules. Any dispute about the status of the marked stone is trivial.

jann · Post by **jann** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:48 am

Gaining points on one-sided dame (thus some score difference) is known property of the approach of appending an area-like dispute phase after the territory-based main phase. This is not specific to a particular ruleset.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:23 pm

jann wrote:Gaining points on one-sided dame (thus some score difference) is known property of the approach of appending an area-like dispute phase after the territory-based main phase. This is not specific to a particular ruleset.

BTW Jann, do you know how this problem is resolved in J89 rules ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O . | $$ | X . O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O . | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

We can easily see the following hypothtetical play

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ ---------------- $$ | . O O X O O 1 | $$ | X 2 O X O O B | $$ | X X O X O O 3 | $$ | . . O X O O O | $$ | O O O X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O O | $$ | . . . . X O . | $$ -------------[/go]

black can recognize that the black marked stone is captured but she may argue she has created another living stone at

which was not there at the beginning of the hypothetical play. As a consequence you cannot declare the marked stone dead! Surely black attitude is quite unfair but what is the answer of the rule?

jann · Post by **jann** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:38 pm

B can play one-sided dame regardless of the right side, so that stone was not "enabled" by the right side capture. J89 has no problem here.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:34 pm

jann wrote:B can play one-sided dame regardless of the right side, so that stone was not "enabled" by the right side capture. J89 has no problem here.

Thank you Jann, I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule but is not quite clear. Can the rule force black to play the one-side dames before the end of the game?

jann · Post by **jann** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:01 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule

No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:10 pm

jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule
No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.

Now I understand. Thank you again Jann.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:27 pm

jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule
No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.

As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out.

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1.

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:24 am

Bill Spight wrote:
jann wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:I assume the same kind argument may be used with Spight rule
No, play out territory rules don't use "enable", that only has meaning in hypothetical analysis. With an area phase B collects the points without arguing.
As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out.

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1.

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.

BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:20 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out.

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1.

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.
BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.

This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:32 am

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out.

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1.

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.
BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.
This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018

OK Bill, but how I have to proceed to draw all the articles and build a complete picture of the rule?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:15 am

Bill Spight wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:As I keep saying, Spight rules are not Japanese rules. There is no hypothetical play, although the players may agree to the score without playing everything out.

There may also be a territory encore at temperature -1.

One way dame — liberties, not neutral points — count as territory. Also, in some seki positions the group tax may be 1 point, not 2.
BTW Bill the only version I found is at the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules but seeing the comments included I am wondering if it exists an updating version.
This is the correct SL page: https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightRules

See also #48: viewtopic.php?p=266018#p266018

Gérard TAILLE wrote:OK Bill, but how I have to proceed to draw all the articles and build a complete picture of the rule?

Here is the complete text:

Bill Spight wrote:I have proposed these two rules which address the questions of endless repetition and stopping play at the end of the game.

* A board play may not repeat a previous whole board position unless a pass has intervened since its last occurrence.

* Play stops when the same player passes a second time in the same board position.

With area scoring play ends when play stops. With territory scoring play stops twice. After the first stop there is an encore in which a pass costs one point and each player makes the same number of plays (considering a pass a play). Also, passes before the encore do not count for stopping play in the encore. After the second stop play ends if each player has made the same number of plays. If not, the second player in the encore makes an obligatory pass and play ends.

What's the problem?

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:45 pm

Bill Spight wrote:What's the problem?

in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:

Article 8. Territory
After all dead stones, if any, have been removed, empty points that are surrounded by stones of the same player are called eye points, and any empty points that are not eye points are called neutral points. All stones that surround the same eye points belong to the same group. A group is called a seki group if it is adjacent to a neutral point, or if one or more of its stones is in atari. Eye points that are surrounded by a group that is not a seki group are territory. Territory belongs to the player whose stones surround it.

Comment: The current definition is unclear. First, it distinguishes eye points from neutral points, and later distinguishes some eye points from territory in an unclear way, talking about seki stones possessing neutral points that they are not connected to. I replace the idea of seki stones with that of a seki group, and include the idea of atari, to cover double ko seki and other strange seki.

Trying to clarify what is a territory seemed to me a good idea, wasn't it?

What about the repetition and stopping play ?
For chinese rules it doesn't change really the result of the game, at least on a 19x19 board. Your proposal allows to remove anomalies known as beast positions on small board and it for me a good point.
For japonese rule it is quite different due to the "encore". As a consequence even common seki may give a different result and, as you mentionned yourself several time, the rule appears really different.
Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W 1 point in japonese rule and 2 points in Spight rule $$ -------------------- $$ | . O . X O . X O . . . . . $$ | O O O X X X X O . . $$ | X X X O O O O O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$[/go]

Just for fun how will be handled the following position ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------------------------- $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O . . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X O O . . $$ | X X X X X X X X X X X . O . . $$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O O . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$[/go]

With your rule white will OC take the 11x11 black stones, but the strange point here is that white can choose to take the black stones either in normal play or in an encore play. Because white will play first it seems it is better for white to choose the encore play with the opportunity to gain one more point if white can play the last dame.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:What's the problem?
in the link https://senseis.xmp.net/?SpightJapaneseStyleRules it exist for example the following article:

That's the wrong link, as I just told you.

Life In 19x19

Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules

Re: Moonlight life and go rules