GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:32 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O . O X a X O O b |
$$ | O O O O X X O X O |
$$ | . X X X . X O X X |
$$ | X X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O O O O O X O O O |
$$ | . . . O O X X X X |
$$ | . . . . O O O O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X a X O O b | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+ $$[/go]
Two kos.
Applying Honte's magic wand would be a disaster for white wouldn't it?

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify what a "DOUBLE-Ko" is.

Sensei's Library wrote:Double ko refers to any situation in which a group has two kos, and these determine its status.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at left $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . Q Y T Y O O . | $$ | O O O Q Y X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Groups connected to the ko at left $$ +-------------------+ $$ | Q . Q Y T Y O O . | $$ | Q Q Q Q Y Y O X O | $$ | . Y Y Y . Y O X X | $$ | Y Y Y Y Y Y O . . | $$ | O O O O O Y O O O | $$ | . . . O O Y Y Y Y | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at right $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X O Q T | $$ | O O O O X X O Y Q | $$ | . X X X . X O X Y | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Groups connected to the ko at right $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X Q Q T | $$ | O O O O X X Q Y Q | $$ | . X X X . X Q Y Y | $$ | X X X X X X Q . . | $$ | O O O O O X Q Q Q | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

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NONE of the groups is connected to BOTH ko-shapes, so Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell will have no effect here.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

The topic above is strongly connected with what a FALSE EYE is.

Sensei's Library wrote:A false eye is something which looks like an eye, but shouldn't be counted as part of the group's eye space because some of the surrounding stones can be put into atari.

Honte's spell only works on false eyes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at left => false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X M X O O . | $$ | O O O P X X O X O | $$ | 1 X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

is an atari.
If White captured into that ko, it would be her stone that was in atari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at left => false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X 1 X O O . | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

False eyes in a seki can be filled by EITHER side (or NEITHER side, as with a GENUINE double-ko, to be complete).
Black here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Ko at left => false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X 1 X O O . | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Ko at left => false eye; :b2: pass $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O 3 O X O O . | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

White here.

------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at right => NO false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X O O C | $$ | O O O O X X O B O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O 1 . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

is a self-atari!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at right => NO false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X O O 1 | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ko at right => NO false eye; :w2: pass $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X O O X | $$ | O O O O X X O X 3 | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Black is able to fill the ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Ko at right => NO false eye $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . O X . X O O 1 | $$ | O O O O X X O X O | $$ | . X X X . X O X X | $$ | X X X X X X O . . | $$ | O O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . O O O O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

White is NOT!

==> That ko-shape is a genuine part of White's eye space!

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Sun Aug 29, 2021 2:42 pm

Honte's magic SINGLE-ko spell –– Usually there is NO ko at the beginning of status confirmation!

##### False eyes in status confirmation #####

Probably you already noticed that EVERY ko-shape that effectively remained after the application of Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell in my respective posting above is nothing more than only a FALSE EYE:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B ko-shape $$ +---------------+ $$ | . Q . Q . X . | $$ | O O Q X X X . | $$ | X X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B false eye $$ +---------------+ $$ | . O M O . X . | $$ | O O O Z X X . | $$ | X X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . |[/go]

------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B ko-shape $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . Q O . O . O X X . O . O | $$ | Q X X O O O O X X O O O O | $$ | X X . X X X O X . O O X X | $$ | . . X , X O X X X O O X X | $$ | X X X X X O X . X O X X . | $$ | O O O O X O X X X O X . X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B false eye $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | M O O . O . O X X . O . O | $$ | O Z X O O O O X X O O O O | $$ | X X . X X X O X . O O X X | $$ | . . X , X O X X X O O X X | $$ | X X X X X O X . X O X X . | $$ | O O O O X O X X X O X . X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Being a FALSE EYE means that the remaining SINGLE-ko shape is equivalent to a single liberty. Please refer to my previous posting for a more detailled explanation.
Honte's magic wand can be applied on these remaining SINGLE-ko, too! Please note that stones in SINGLE-ko will only move AFTER their collegues in the DOUBLE-ko already did. Please also note that in principle the formations that remain on the bord after Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell will not be particularly complicated, so in many cases you will be able to recognize the status without further magic.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | . O Q T . X . | $$ | O O O X X X . | $$ | X X X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . |[/go]

After Honte used his magic wand for the second time...

------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B ko-shape $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | Q O O . O . O X X . O . O | $$ | T X X O O O O X X O O O O | $$ | X X . X X X O X . O O X X | $$ | . . X , X O X X X O O X X | $$ | X X X X X O X . X O X X . | $$ | O O O O X O X X X O X . X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O X X X X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

After Honte used his magic wand for the second time...

There is NO ko at the beginning of status confirmation!

J89 were trying to fix something that wasn't broken at all.

As we now know (viewtopic.php?p=267061#p267061), there are exceptions...

##### False eyes during play #####

Please note that false eyes have different properties during play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O X X X . O . O X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black to move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O X X X 2 O 1 O X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm3 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . 1 5 O O X 3 X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O 2 4 6 O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Please note that White's moves are played on the OUTSIDE, which would be irrelevant in status confirmation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm5 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O . X X O O . . . | $$ | O O O O O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O O O O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White won the semeai.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Honte's magic SINGLE-ko spell is NOT designed for the real world!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O X X X . O Q T X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black to move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O X X X 2 O O 1 X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | . . . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O 7 3 5 O O O X X | $$ | O O O O O O O X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | 4 6 . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Please note that White's moves are played on the OUTSIDE, which would be irrelevant in status confirmation.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . X X X . . . X X | $$ | . . . . . . . X X | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O . O O O O O O | $$ | O O O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black won the semeai.

_________________
EDITED

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:48 am

Thomas,
Obviously it is still too early to know how to use Honte's magic wand. Surely it will be used during a confirmation phase (normal play is OC excluded) but what kind of confirmation phase? In GT territory rule the confirmation phase is quite close to normal play while in J89 or J2008 the pass-for-ko or the ko-pass change the analyse. In any case I guess magic wand might be use but only in special conditions which will depend of the confirmation phase used.
The best is to wait still a moment isn't it? Later, depending of how works in detail the confirmation phase you have in mind, surely you will be able to define the conditions to use the magic wand : who can use this wand (the attacker, the defender, both), in which kind of position the wand may be used (existing kos, number of groups involved, two stage ko allowed ...) when the wand can be used (remember in GT rule I defined special moment by using "critical" position) ...

Exceptionnaly

I will try to avoid being impatient relating to the use of the Honte's magic. Take all the time needed to progress in your analysis.
Wait and see.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 2:55 am

(clicked "Submit" too early here...)

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:13 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Thomas,
Obviously it is still too early to know how to use Honte's magic wand. Surely it will be used during a confirmation phase (normal play is OC excluded) but what kind of confirmation phase? In GT territory rule the confirmation phase is quite close to normal play while in J89 or J2008 the pass-for-ko or the ko-pass change the analyse. In any case I guess magic wand might be use but only in special conditions which will depend of the confirmation phase used.
The best is to wait still a moment isn't it? Later, depending of how works in detail the confirmation phase you have in mind, surely you will be able to define the conditions to use the magic wand : who can use this wand (the attacker, the defender, both), in which kind of position the wand may be used (existing kos, number of groups involved, two stage ko allowed ...) when the wand can be used (remember in GT rule I defined special moment by using "critical" position) ...

Exceptionnaly I will try to avoid being impatient relating to the use of the Honte's magic. Take all the time needed to progress in your analysis.
Wait and see.

Analysis:

Is finished as you can see from my previous posting. I am waiting for potential counter-examples.
I still seriously wonder if I am really the very first to discover these principles.

----------------------

Usage:

Final board position of "play" ==> Apply "Honte's Magic Ko Spells" on the entire board ==> Board position for "status confirmation" / "territory identification".

That's all.
The number of potential occasions for controversial discussions remaining will be extremely limited. The same applies to both the occurrence of potential applications of any ko-pass variants and to "pass" after ko-captures.
Regardless of which ruleset you apply, you will always get the "J89-intended" result.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

By the way:
I've heard rumours that Queen rewrote the first two verses of their well-known hit "A Kind of Magic":

No ko, no loop, no capture ban
No golden glance of what could be
It's a kind of magic

One magic spell that shows the way
A Labrador will win this day
It's a kind of magic

___________________
EDITED

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 6:38 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Thomas,
Obviously it is still too early to know how to use Honte's magic wand.

Obviously is nothing!
viewtopic.php?p=267023#p267023 had a purpose

Nevertheless:
You seem to expect some kind of "proof".
The inconsistencies in the J89 ruleset largely relate to positions with a triple-ko.
Well, here comes part 1 of the "proof". The diagrams are a continuation of the previous ones for the triple-ko cycles.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

About Honte's magic spells

##### GENUINE Triple-Ko: enforced cycle #####

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? X X X X X X X ? ? $$ ? ? X O X O X . X ? ? $$ ? ? O . O . O X O ? ? $$ ? ? O O O O O O O ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . M M M M M . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . M M . ? O W . ? . M M . . . . | $$ | . M M M . . . ? . . X ? . . . M M M . | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M ? O . . ? . M M M M M . ? . O . ? M | $$ | M ? . X B ? M . . . . . M ? B . X ? M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M . . . . . M . . . . . M . . . . . M | $$ | M . . , . . M . . , . . M . . , . . M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M ? W . O ? M . . . . . M ? . O W ? M | $$ | M ? . X . ? M . . . . . M ? X . . ? M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? . M M M M M . ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | . M M M . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . M M M . | $$ | . . . , M . . ? . , O ? . . M , . . . | $$ | . . . . . M . ? X B . ? . M . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . M M M M M . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR M17 Q15} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR Q6 M3} $$ {AR H3 D6} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR D15 H17}[/go]

Let's apply Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell to the outer ko-shapes...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . M M M M M . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . M M . ? T W Y ? . M M . . . . | $$ | . M M M . . . ? Q . T ? . . . M M M . | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M ? T . Y ? . M M M M M . ? T O Y ? M | $$ | M ? Q X T ? M . . . . . M ? Q . T ? M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M . . . . . M . . . . . M . . . . . M | $$ | M . . , . . M . . , . . M . . , . . M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | M ? T . Y ? M . . . . . M ? T O Y ? M | $$ | M ? Q X T ? M . . . . . M ? Q . T ? M | $$ | M ? ? ? ? ? . M M M M M . ? ? ? ? ? M | $$ | . M M M . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . M M M . | $$ | . . . , M . . ? T , Y ? . . M , . . . | $$ | . . . . . M . ? Q B T ? . M . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . M ? ? ? ? ? M . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . M M M M M . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR M17 Q15} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR Q6 M3} $$ {AR H3 D6} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR D15 H17}[/go]

Nothing happens to the left and right INSIDE the cycle. This means that the cycle will be left there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T W Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q , T ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T , Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q B T ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR M17 Q14} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR E12 E9} $$ {AR Q7 M3} $$ {AR H3 D7} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR P9 P12} $$ {AR D14 H17}[/go]

The result is a ko-fight for nothing, as the position is seki anyway.
Both players might prefer continuing with the status confirmation elsewhere.

-------------------------

Let's apply Honte's magic KO-spell to the inner ko-shape...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q Q T ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . Q . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T Y Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q T T ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR P8 E8} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR E13 P13}[/go]

Status confirmation takes place outside the triple-ko formation!

##### GENUINE Triple-Ko: optional cycle #1 #####

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? X X X X X X X ? ? ? $$ ? ? X O X O X . X X ? ? $$ ? ? O . O . O X O C ? ? $$ ? ? O O O O O O O ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]

--------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? O W . ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? . . X C . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? O . . ? . . . . . . . ? . O . ? . | $$ | . ? . X B C . . . . . . . ? B . X C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? W . O ? . . . . . . . ? . O W ? . | $$ | . ? . X . C . . . . . . . ? X . . C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? . . O ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? X B . C . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR M17 Q15} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR Q6 M3} $$ {AR H3 D6} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR D15 H17} $$ {AR J2 J1} $$ {AR K2 K1} $$ {AR L2 L1}[/go]

Let's apply Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell to the outer ko-shapes...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T W Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q . T C . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T O Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T C . . . . . . . ? Q . T C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T O Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T C . . . . . . . ? Q . T C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T . Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q B T C . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR J2 J1} $$ {AR K2 K1} $$ {AR L2 L1} $$ {AR J18 J19} $$ {AR K18 K19} $$ {AR L18 L19}[/go]

Nothing happens to the left and right INSIDE the cycle. This means that the cycle will be left there.
We chose the lower exit for an exemplary case.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . Q . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T . Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T C . . . . . . . ? Q X T B . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . Y . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T W Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T C . . . . . . . ? Q . T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . e n . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . f o r c e d | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR J19 J18} $$ {AR K19 K18} $$ {AR P12 P9} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR R12 R9} $$ {AR L19 L18} $$ {AR C18 C19} $$ {AR D18 D19} $$ {AR E18 E19} $$ {AR K16 K11} $$ {AR L17 O14} $$ {AR L10 L16} $$ {AR J11 D18}[/go]

Right:
-- Black occupies the shared liberty.
This exits to the ENFORCED cycle.
Left:
-- Nothing can happen there.
This exits to the diagram above.
Middle:
-- Status confirmation takes place outside the triple-ko formation.

-----------------------------

Let's apply Honte's magic KO spell to the inner ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q Q T C . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q Q T C . . . . . . . ? Q Q T C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q Q T C . . . . . . . ? Q Q T C . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T T Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q Q T C . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Status confirmation takes place outside the triple-ko formation.

##### GENUINE Triple-Ko: optional cycle #2 #####

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? X X X X X X X S ? ? $$ ? ? X O X O X . X X ? ? $$ ? ? O . O . O X O O ? ? $$ ? ? O O O O O O O S ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? $$ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?[/go]

--------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? O W . ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? . . X ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? O . . ? . . . . . . . ? . O . ? . | $$ | . ? . X B ? . . . . . . . ? B . X ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? W . O ? . . . . . . . ? . O W ? . | $$ | . ? . X . ? . . . . . . . ? X . . ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? . . O ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? X B . ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR M17 Q15} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR Q6 M3} $$ {AR H3 D6} $$ {AR D9 D12} $$ {AR D15 H17} $$ {AR J2 J1} $$ {AR K2 K1} $$ {AR L2 L1}[/go]

Let's apply Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell to the outer ko-shapes...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T W Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q . T ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T O Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T ? . . . . . . . ? Q . T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T O Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T ? . . . . . . . ? Q . T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T . Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q B T ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR J2 J1} $$ {AR K2 K1} $$ {AR L2 L1} $$ {AR J18 J19} $$ {AR K18 K19} $$ {AR L18 L19}[/go]

Nothing happens to the left and right INSIDE the cycle. This means that the cycle will be left there.
We chose the lower exit for an exemplary case.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . Q . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . ? T B Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q X T ? . . . . . . . ? Q X T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . Y . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? T . Y ? . . . . . . . . . Q . . . | $$ | . ? Q X T ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ {AR J11 D18} $$ {AR J19 J18} $$ {AR K19 K18} $$ {AR P12 P9} $$ {AR Q12 Q9} $$ {AR R12 R9} $$ {AR Q7 Q4} $$ {AR P3 P7} $$ {AR L19 L18} $$ {AR C18 C19} $$ {AR D18 D19} $$ {AR E18 E19} $$ {AR L17 O15} $$ {AR K16 K11} $$ {AR L10 L16}[/go]

Right:
-- Black fills the ko-shape in the middle.
This exits to a status confirmation outside the triple-ko formation.
Left:
-- Nothing can happen there.
This exits to the diagram above.
Middle:
-- Status confirmation takes place outside the triple-ko formation.

----------------

Let's apply Honte's magic KO spell to the inner ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? Q Q T ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q Q T ? . . . . . . . ? Q Q T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . ? T T Y ? . . . . . . . ? T T Y ? . | $$ | . ? Q Q T ? . . . . . . . ? Q Q T ? . | $$ | . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . ? T T Y ? . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? Q Q T ? . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . ? ? ? ? S . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Status confirmation takes place outside the triple-ko formation.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 7:18 am

Cassandra wrote: Is finished as you can see from my previous posting. I am waiting for potential counter-examples.
I still seriously wonder if I am really the very first to discover these principles.

----------------------

Usage:

Final board position of "play" ==> Apply "Honte's Magic Ko Spell" on the entire board ==> Board position for "status confirmation" / "territory identification".

That's all.
The number of potential occasions for controversial discussions remaining will be extremely limited. The same applies to both the occurrence of potential applications of any ko-pass variants and to "pass" after ko-captures.
Regardless of which ruleset you apply, you will always get the "J89-intended" result.

OK thomas let me propose the following example with a very very clear double ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . B O a O X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O X b X X | $$ | O O O . O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

The white stones at the top are dead because, black to play, none of these white stones are alive.

The question is now the following : are black marked stones alive or dead?

To answer this question you start an hypothetical play with white to play right?
In J89 or J2003 it follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | 3 O 2 B O a O X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O X b X X | $$ | O O O 1 O O X X X | $$ | 4 X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

and black group is clearly alive.

What about Honte's Magic Ko Spell ?
The initial position becomes

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . B O O a X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O b X X X | $$ | O O O . O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

and the hypothetical play becomes

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | 3 O 2 B O O a X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O b X X X | $$ | O O O 1 O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

and now black group is dead

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:27 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote: Is finished as you can see from my previous posting. I am waiting for potential counter-examples.
I still seriously wonder if I am really the very first to discover these principles.

----------------------

Usage:

Final board position of "play" ==> Apply "Honte's Magic Ko Spell" on the entire board ==> Board position for "status confirmation" / "territory identification".

That's all.
The number of potential occasions for controversial discussions remaining will be extremely limited. The same applies to both the occurrence of potential applications of any ko-pass variants and to "pass" after ko-captures.
Regardless of which ruleset you apply, you will always get the "J89-intended" result.

Sorry, I must have forgotten an "s".
It should read "Honte's Magic Ko Spells".

Apply "Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell" on the entire board.

Apply "Honte's magic SINGLE-ko spell" (to be clear) on the entire board (if you consider this being necessary).

---------------------------------

OK thomas let me propose the following example with a very very clear double ko.

$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O O . B O a O X . |
$$ | O B B B O O X X X |
$$ | B B B B O X b X X |
$$ | O O O . O O X X X |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O . O . |
$$ | . X . X X O O O O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . B O a O X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O X b X X | $$ | O O O . O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Are you kidding me?

viewtopic.php?p=267053#p267053:

Sensei's Library wrote:Double ko refers to any situation in which a group has two kos, and these determine its status.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X O . O X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O X . X X | $$ | O O O 1 O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

If it would be Black's turn.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X Q . Q B . | $$ | O X X X O Q Y B B | $$ | X X X X O Y . B B | $$ | O O O M O O Y B B | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

The status of Black's circled group in the upper right corner would ONLY be determined by the neighboured compound of two ko-shapes (triangled), if Black had occupied the crossed point to the left.
As it stands, the status of Black's group in the corner is ENTIRELY dependent on the status of White's group at the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X W . O X . | $$ | O X X X W W X X X | $$ | X X X X W X . X X | $$ | O O O M W W X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

The status of White's circled group is determined by the number of its outside liberties!

=> Thus, the compound of Black and White groups in the upper right corner is NOT a double-ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . O . O X . | $$ | . . . . O O X X X | $$ | . . . . O X . X X | $$ | . . . . O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

This formation in the upper right corner is NOT a double-ko!

If you want a donkey bridge:
A GENUINE double-ko does NOT have any DAME and so is ALWAYS a (temporary) seki!

--------------------------

In order to answer your question, which is sure to come, just now:

No, "Honte's magic SINGLE-ko spell" does NOT apply here, because each of the two groups is adjacent to TWO ko-shapes that remained on the board after magic spell

And please remember that the potentially critical triple-ko cycles will be next to impossible after

.
Therefore,

will not be necessary in the overwhelming majority of cases.

is not mandatory at all. Most of the players will be able to look even through false eyes

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:11 am

Cassandra wrote:
Gérard TAILLE wrote:
Cassandra wrote: Is finished as you can see from my previous posting. I am waiting for potential counter-examples.
I still seriously wonder if I am really the very first to discover these principles.

----------------------

Usage:

Final board position of "play" ==> Apply "Honte's Magic Ko Spell" on the entire board ==> Board position for "status confirmation" / "territory identification".

That's all.
The number of potential occasions for controversial discussions remaining will be extremely limited. The same applies to both the occurrence of potential applications of any ko-pass variants and to "pass" after ko-captures.
Regardless of which ruleset you apply, you will always get the "J89-intended" result.
Sorry, I must have forgotten an "s".
It should read "Honte's Magic Ko Spells".

Apply "Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell" on the entire board.
Apply "Honte's magic SINGLE-ko spell" (to be clear) on the entire board (if you consider this being necessary).

---------------------------------

OK thomas let me propose the following example with a very very clear double ko.

$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O O . B O a O X . |
$$ | O B B B O O X X X |
$$ | B B B B O X b X X |
$$ | O O O . O O X X X |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O . O . |
$$ | . X . X X O O O O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . B O a O X . | $$ | O B B B O O X X X | $$ | B B B B O X b X X | $$ | O O O . O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
Are you kidding me?

viewtopic.php?p=267053#p267053:
Sensei's Library wrote:Double ko refers to any situation in which a group has two kos, and these determine its status.

$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O O . X O . O X . |
$$ | O X X X O O X X X |
$$ | X X X X O X . X X |
$$ | O O O 1 O O X X X |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O . O . |
$$ | . X . X X O O O O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X O . O X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O X . X X | $$ | O O O 1 O O X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
If it would be Black's turn.

$$W
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O O . X Q . Q B . |
$$ | O X X X O Q Y B B |
$$ | X X X X O Y . B B |
$$ | O O O M O O Y B B |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O . O . |
$$ | . X . X X O O O O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X Q . Q B . | $$ | O X X X O Q Y B B | $$ | X X X X O Y . B B | $$ | O O O M O O Y B B | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
The status of Black's circled group in the upper right corner would ONLY be determined by the neighboured compound of two ko-shapes (triangled), if Black had occupied the crossed point to the left.
As it stands, the status of Black's group in the corner is ENTIRELY dependent on the status of White's group at the top.

$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | O O . X W . O X . |
$$ | O X X X W W X X X |
$$ | X X X X W X . X X |
$$ | O O O M W W X X X |
$$ | . X X X X X O O O |
$$ | X X X X X O . O . |
$$ | . X . X X O O O O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X W . O X . | $$ | O X X X W W X X X | $$ | X X X X W X . X X | $$ | O O O M W W X X X | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X X X X O . O . | $$ | . X . X X O O O O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
The status of White's circled group is determined by the number of its outside liberties!

=> Thus, the compound of Black and White groups in the upper right corner is NOT a double-ko.

It becomes very restricted. Let's take one of your previous analyses:

Cassandra wrote: GT City's Central Park - seen from above

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | O X . X . O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O . O X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
In the morning mist.

$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W Z C Z C W C |
$$ | C W Z Z Z W W |
$$ | W C W W Z Z W |
$$ | W W W C W Z W |
$$ | X X W W Z Z W |
$$ | . X X W W W C |
$$ | X . X X X W W |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W Z C Z C W C | $$ | C W Z Z Z W W | $$ | W C W W Z Z W | $$ | W W W C W Z W | $$ | X X W W Z Z W | $$ | . X X W W W C | $$ | X . X X X W W | $$ -----------------[/go]
Yesterday evening - illuminated.

$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | O . X Y T O . |
$$ | . O X X X O O |
$$ | O . O O X X O |
$$ | O O O Q T X O |
$$ | X X O O X X O |
$$ | . X X O O O . |
$$ | X . X X X O O |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | O . X Y T O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O Q T X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]
After Honte used his magic wand...

$$B
$$ +---------------+
$$ | W . Z Z . W . |
$$ | . W Z Z Z W W |
$$ | W . W W Z Z W |
$$ | W W W W . Z W |
$$ | X X W W Z Z W |
$$ | . X X W W W . |
$$ | X . X X X W W |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | W . Z Z . W . | $$ | . W Z Z Z W W | $$ | W . W W Z Z W | $$ | W W W W . Z W | $$ | X X W W Z Z W | $$ | . X X W W W . | $$ | X . X X X W W | $$ -----------------[/go]
Two eyes vs. no eye.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W X . B M O . | $$ | . W B B B O O | $$ | W . W W B B O | $$ | W W W . W B O | $$ | X X W W B B O | $$ | . X X W W W . | $$ | X . X X X W W | $$ -----------------[/go]

Because of the external marked liberty you can no more use magic wand can you?

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:45 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ -----------------
$$ | W X . B M O . |
$$ | . W B B B O O |
$$ | W . W W B B O |
$$ | W W W . W B O |
$$ | X X W W B B O |
$$ | . X X W W W . |
$$ | X . X X X W W |
$$ -----------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | W X . B M O . | $$ | . W B B B O O | $$ | W . W W B B O | $$ | W W W . W B O | $$ | X X W W B B O | $$ | . X X W W W . | $$ | X . X X X W W | $$ -----------------[/go]
Because of the external marked liberty you can no more use magic wand can you?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . B C W . | $$ | . W B B B W W | $$ | W Q W W B B W | $$ | W W W . O B W | $$ | X X W W B B W | $$ | . X X W W W Q | $$ | X . X X X W W | $$ -----------------[/go]

is a SHARED INTERNAL liberty of Black's and White's (only single;

added for clarity) groups, isn't it?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nevertheless, I can understand your concerns about a combination of two ko-shapes, which are caught in a (potential) semeai.
So, let's return to the "standard" version of a double-ko...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | . Y . Y O X . | $$ | X X Y O O X . | $$ | Q X O . O X . | $$ | . Q O O O X . | $$ | Q O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

Double-ko, standard version.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | C B C X O X . | $$ | B B O O O X . | $$ | O B O . O X . | $$ | . O O O O X . | $$ | O O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

Black's group has TWO liberties

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | . X . X W X . | $$ | X X X W W X . | $$ | O X W C W X . | $$ | C W W W W X . | $$ | W W X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

White's group has TWO liberties

.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | . X Y T O X . | $$ | X X X O O X . | $$ | T X O . O X . | $$ | Q O O O O X . | $$ | O O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

After Honte used his magic wand...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | S X X C O X . | $$ | X X X O O X . | $$ | C X O S O X . | $$ | O O O O O X . | $$ | O O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

There are two SHARED liberties

now, and each of the double-ko groups has another exclusive liberty

inside. Thus, both groups have THREE liberties now, one more than before.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | S X X C O X . | $$ | X X X O O X . | $$ | Q X O S O X . | $$ | O O O O O X . | $$ | O O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

Probably we might want to add a supplementary effect to Honte's magic spell, which would be equivalent of FILLING ONE of both ko-shapes.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------+ $$ | S X X Y O X . | $$ | X X X O O X . | $$ | C X O S O X . | $$ | O O O O O X . | $$ | O O X X X X . | $$ | X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------+[/go]

The position is SYMMETRICAL, so we could ALSO choose the other ko-shape for this purpose.
This reduces the number of SHARED liberties by one, so we are back at TWO liberties for both double-ko groups.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Let's try to analyse the application on GT City's Central Park:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O X . X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O . O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O T Y X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O Q T X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

After Honte used his magic wand...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O Y X X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O O . X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Supplymentary effect for the UPPER ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B WHITE territory? $$ ----------------- $$ | O X X X . O . | $$ | 1 O X X X O O | $$ | O 2 O O X X O | $$ | O O O O . X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Me ari me nashi. => White territory!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O O Q X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Supplymentary effect for the LOWER ko-shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B WHITE territory?; :b1: pass $$ ----------------- $$ | O . X X . O . | $$ | . O X X X O O | $$ | O . O O X X O | $$ | O O O O O X O | $$ | X X O O X X O | $$ | . X X O O O . | $$ | X . X X X O O | $$ -----------------[/go]

Me ari me nashi. => White territory!
It does not wonder that the sequences are different, as the formation is NOT symmetrical.

The results are the same as without supplementary effect. => GENUINE double-ko.

++++++++++++++++++++

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X O . O X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O X . X O | $$ | O O O . O O X X O | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X . X . . O . O | $$ | . X X X . . O O . | $$ | X X . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Your example with the pretended double-ko in the upper right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X O Q T X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O T Y X O | $$ | O O O . O O X X O | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X . X . . O . O | $$ | . X X X . . O O . | $$ | X X . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

After Honte used his magic wand...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O . X O O Q X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O . X X O | $$ | O O O . O O X X O | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X . X . . O . O | $$ | . X X X . . O O . | $$ | X X . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Supplymentary effect.
Please note that the compound of the two ko-shapes is a symmetrical one here, so we are free to choose which one of these we want to fill.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W BLACK territory? $$ +-------------------+ $$ | O O 2 X O O O X . | $$ | O X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O . X X O | $$ | O O O 1 O O X X O | $$ | . X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X . X . . O . O | $$ | . X X X . . O O . | $$ | X X . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W BLACK territory? $$ +-------------------+ $$ | 3 . X X O O O X . | $$ | . X X X O O X X X | $$ | X X X X O . X X O | $$ | O O O O O O X X O | $$ | 4 X X X X X O O O | $$ | X X . X . . O . O | $$ | . X X X . . O O . | $$ | X X . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Two liberties for Black vs. only one liberty for White. => Black territory!

This result is different from that without supplementary effect => The supposed seki is NOT a GENUINE one!

Thus -- when in doubt (or too lazy to do a thirteen minute double-ko analysis, including an intensive internet recherche) -- view the director's cut, extended version

I am sure that you will not get tired of this film. You will not stumble over (critical) double-ko formations in EVERY of your games.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:01 am

Cassandra wrote:About compositions of four ko-shapes

$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . . |
$$ | . X X X O O X X . |
$$ | X X O O X O O X X |
$$ | O O O X X X O O O |
$$ | O O X . X . X O O |
$$ | O O O X X X O O O |
$$ | . O . O X O . O . |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X X . . | $$ | . X X X O O X X . | $$ | X X O O X O O X X | $$ | O O O X X X O O O | $$ | O O X . X . X O O | $$ | O O O X X X O O O | $$ | . O . O X O . O . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
This is the example with four ko-shapes that Gérard kindly provided to me.

Dear Thomas,
A small (?) modification of the position above leads to a far more interesting position : firstly a cycle is difficult to define clearly and secondly in this position black has advantageaous loop => all white stones are dead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O X X O O X O O | $$ | . O O O X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . O X X X O . O | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . O X . X . X O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:24 pm

There will be neither cycles nor looping any more! It will no longer be necessary to be afraid of large numbers!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O X X O O X O O | $$ | . O O O X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O Q Q X X X Q Q O | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O Q T X . X Y T O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

After Honte said the safety-first version of his magic DOUBLE-ko spell...

"Dame ari dame nashi" ==> Three liberties vs. two liberties ==> Black wins any semeai for sure.

Gérard TAILLE · Post by **Gérard TAILLE** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 1:55 pm

Cassandra wrote:There will be neither cycles nor looping any more! It will no longer be necessary to be afraid of large numbers!

$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | . O O O X O O O . |
$$ | O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O Q Q X X X Q Q O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O Q T X . X Y T O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O X X O O X O O | $$ | . O O O X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O Q Q X X X Q Q O | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O Q T X . X Y T O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
After Honte said the safety-first version of his magic DOUBLE-ko spell...

==> Three liberties vs. two liberties ==> Black wins any semeai for sure.

Dear Thomas,

Is it a good understanding that, due to the Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell, you now stopped the analysis of loops, cycles and length of cycle?

What you have to clarify is the context for applying Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell.
I understand it has to be used in a confirmation phase but which one? I guess it could not be J89 or J2003 because in these rules the loops are already breaked with pass-for-ko or ko-pass.
I assume it is a confirmation phase you have in mind but without knowing it in detail I do not know how building interesting examples for challenging the concept.

In addition a double ko has to be defined without ambiguity:
Are two-stage ko allowed?
Are external liberties allowed?
Are extern ko allowed (as my exemple above with four ko)?
A ko must involve only one black group and one white group or could it involve more than two groups?
...

That the reason I said I have to avoid being impatient:
1) what is the exact defintion of what you call a double ko?
2) what is the confirmation phase used (pass-ko? group of stones status approach? loops wihout double ko ...)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O X X O O X O O | $$ | . O O O X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . W X X X O . O | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . W X . X . X O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

I saw also that you handled the marked ko above as double ko though white as made the last capture in both ko. Is it really your idea?

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:18 pm

Gérard TAILLE wrote:
$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X X X X X X X X |
$$ | O O X X O O X O O |
$$ | . O O O X O O O . |
$$ | O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O . W X X X O . O |
$$ | O O X X X X X O O |
$$ | O . W X . X . X O |
$$ +-------------------+
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X X X X X X X X X | $$ | O O X X O O X O O | $$ | . O O O X O O O . | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . W X X X O . O | $$ | O O X X X X X O O | $$ | O . W X . X . X O | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
I saw also that you handled the marked ko above as double ko though white as made the last capture in both ko. Is it really your idea?

YES. This position contains TWO connected double-ko. Thus, even if Black is ataried in one of these, he still has the ("external") liberty in the other double-ko (not to forget the liberty in his eye).
I am very sure that Black would have played a capture of his own, if his group lacked the eye that is has here.

Please stop letting problems with positions resonate implicitly in your questions, which in reality will never reach the status confirmation in their already partially exhaled life. I just don't like it when people play genius for constructing positions and run around a short time later with an IQ of 80 asking stupid questions.

Further reasoning is below...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Genuine triple-ko cycles $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ | ? O ? B . X . X . W . O ? O ? | $$ | ? O ? O . O . B . X . X ? W ? | $$ | ? X ? X . W . O . O . B ? X ? | $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ | ? O ? O . O . B . X . X ? W ? | $$ | ? O ? B . X . X . W . O ? O ? | $$ | ? X ? X . W . O . O . B ? X ? | $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ +-------------------------------+[/go]

All positions in the cycle are of the type "2 : 1".

If Black captured the other White stone in the very beginning (lower cycle), ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . X . O . O . O . | $$ | . O . O . O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . X . X . O . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . O . X . X . X . O . | $$ | . O . X . X . X . O . O . O . | $$ | . X . X . O . O . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ {AR B7 O7} $$ {AR O5 B5}[/go]

... the cycle would change its direction.

------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Quadruple-ko positions $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . X . O . O . O . | $$ | . X . O . O . X . X . O . | $$ | . O . X . O . X . O . X . | $$ | . O . O . X . O . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . X . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . O . X . . . . . | $$ | . O . O . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . O . X . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +----------------------------+[/go]

There are six positions of the type "2 : 2", and two times four positions of the type "3 : 1" -- with reversed colours.

If the starting position is "2 : 2", either side can start the cycle.
If the starting position is "3 : 1", the player with only one stone must start the cycle.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Genuine quadruple-ko cycle $$ +-------------------------------------------+ $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ | . O ? O ? O . B . X . X . X . X . W ? O ? | $$ | . X ? X ? W . O . O . B . X . X . X ? X ? | $$ | . O ? B ? X . X . W . O . O . B . X ? B ? | $$ | . X ? X ? X . X . X . X . W . O . O ? X ? | $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ +-------------------------------------------+ $$ {AR U1 Q1}[/go]

You will realise that the cycle will never reach its "2 : 2" starting position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Genuine quadruple-ko cycle $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . | $$ | . O ? O ? O . B . | $$ | . X ? X ? X . X . | $$ | . O ? B ? X . X . | $$ | . X ? X ? W . O . | $$ | . . ? ? ? . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]

If White captured the other Black stone (possible everywhere in the cycle), the cycle would change its direction (see the arrow in the previous diagram).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Genuine quadruple-ko cycle $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ | ? X ? X . W . O . O . B ? X ? | $$ | ? O ? B . X . X . W . O ? O ? | $$ | ? O ? O . O . B . X . X ? W ? | $$ | ? O ? O . O . O . O . O ? O ? | $$ | ? ? ? . . . . . . . . . ? ? ? | $$ +-------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------------------+[/go]

If the cycle is started with a "3 : 1" position, it will be possible to reach its starting point.

If Black captured the other White stone, she would continue the cycle with mirrored positions.

------------------------------------

You will realise that if a "4 : 0" starting position was possible as in your example (let's forget for a moment that this would never be part of the final position of the game), the cycle would be as enforced as with a genuine triple-ko.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:59 am

Gérard TAILLE wrote:Dear Thomas,

Is it a good understanding that, due to the Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell, you now stopped the analysis of loops, cycles and length of cycle?

One posting is still to be done that shows the effect of Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell on the ASMYMMETRICAL triple-ko cycles.

What you have to clarify is the context for applying Honte's magic DOUBLE-ko spell.
I understand it has to be used in a confirmation phase but which one? I guess it could not be J89 or J2003 because in these rules the loops are already breaked with pass-for-ko or ko-pass.

As can be seen by my respective posting about the "critical" J89 L&D-examples, there will be no loopings any more after the double-ko shape has been transformed.

"Pass-for-ko" and "ko-pass" are not required for the remaining SIMPLE-ko shapes. It should be evident that these alone cannot create any looping.

I assume it is a confirmation phase you have in mind but without knowing it in detail I do not know how building interesting examples for challenging the concept.

It doesn't matter which one. See above.

In addition a double ko has to be defined without ambiguity:
Are two-stage ko allowed?
Are external liberties allowed?
Are extern ko allowed (as my exemple above with four ko)?
A ko must involve only one black group and one white group or could it involve more than two groups?
...

That the reason I said I have to avoid being impatient:
1) what is the exact defintion of what you call a double ko?
2) what is the confirmation phase used (pass-ko? group of stones status approach? loops wihout double ko ...)

Sensei's Library's definition seems to be sufficient.
I am sure that you will be able to apply it on your own.
Just forget about "As can be seen for granted...". Will help you a lot.

Life In 19x19

GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles

Re: GT territory rules:: Honte's loops and cycles