Prokovich game
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game
Because you are not Japanese.
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flOvermind
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Re: Prokovich game
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Really? With white crawling on the second line? Ok, black still has to defend the weakness, so white gets sente, but still I don't really like white in this diagram...
Why do you consider that bad for black?
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topazg
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amnal
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Re: Prokovich game
topazg wrote:
With the 3-3 point, you must be like a spring. It's fine to sit tight in your little corner, but if black tries to squash you too hard you have to spring up in his face.
I would try to find a way to play like this, to cut black. If white can do so, black has a group with a known weakness and a new weak group with a cutting point. I don't think white should be too concernet about linking with all his stones straight away.
I could well be wrong, but I feel that something like this is a valid line of play.
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game
I think Joaz was the first to see this coming, nice job. I'm learning a lot from this game as we go, and I already know the moves!
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game
Tooveli wrote:My thoughts:
I think it's obvious that White has to come out with the corner stone and there seem to be only two possible moves.
I agree.
Tooveli wrote:If white plays a I imagine the game to proceed as mitsun previously suggested:
In this position, I think I would take Black, but the game is close. Black seems slightly behind on territory (assuming komi = 5.5 or 6.5) because the bottom is undercut, but it's Black's move, the left side for White is not territory yet and Black's sacrifice stone looks to have a little more aji than White's.
There is no way that white will let this happen. The current fight is still about H3. For white to allow
is conceding the fight to black.Tooveli wrote:
If White plays b then things get complicated. I imagine the sequence to 5 (below).
This looks better for White than the previous diagram so I think White will play b next.
Black will not play
in the diagram above. The bottom is way more important to black than the side. He will play like this:Again, black is trying to keep M3 weak so that H3 cannot work.
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Tooveli
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Re: Prokovich game
To Joaz: I'm surprised about your direction analysis - could you explain why you think the bottom is more important? I was thinking that the bottom is undercut by C2 so not all that valuable whereas if Black splits the right then R13 becomes a joint attack and extension from the shimari which is good for Black.
I also don't understand 4 in your diagram.
How do you continue after a? If you cut, then White extends and the fight looks good for White. If you do anything else then White connects and it feels like White has been squeezed out while Black got bad shape on both sides (right is heavier for black and the stone on the bottom has plenty of room eg. b,c,d). I think that once Black plays 2 he wants to follow up at a.
If the bottom is more important, then I think black should play as below:
but this is very painful because now White doesn't have to play a (like the variation with a before 1) and can play b instead if it's better (I think it is).
I'm ready (and waiting) for the professionals to prove me completely wrong here
I also don't understand 4 in your diagram.
How do you continue after a? If you cut, then White extends and the fight looks good for White. If you do anything else then White connects and it feels like White has been squeezed out while Black got bad shape on both sides (right is heavier for black and the stone on the bottom has plenty of room eg. b,c,d). I think that once Black plays 2 he wants to follow up at a.
If the bottom is more important, then I think black should play as below:
but this is very painful because now White doesn't have to play a (like the variation with a before 1) and can play b instead if it's better (I think it is).
I'm ready (and waiting) for the professionals to prove me completely wrong here
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Prokovich game
I agree with Tooveli here.
seems too thin, and black will end up hurt.If anything, I think it's more likely that black will play like this, but I still don't really like this for black.
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game
I'm curious how play would have proceeded if White played at a instead since that seemed to be what people here were fearing more (as Black).
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game
Ok, black got what he wanted: a chance to play around O3/P3 without white responding with M5. Now he can go after M3. The standard technique, of course, is to come from the weak side and push the victim toward the stronger stones. So black will expand off of O3.
seems the most severe.
seems the most severe.Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Joaz Banbeck
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The next move
As I mentioned earlier, letting black have this:
...is just giving him what he wants.
So white will contest like this:
...is just giving him what he wants.
So white will contest like this:
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dfan
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Re: Prokovich game
I think everyone predicted the move that was played, but the commentary thought the following might have been better:
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Prokovich game
BTW, in case nobody has said it...
THANK YOU DFAN
This was a great idea.
THANK YOU DFAN
This was a great idea.
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