KGS homophobia?

[wms]

Room owners can't boot because if their room is public, they should let in anybody. That's what a public room means. If somebody misbehaves, they need to ask an admin to help, and the misbehaving user will be taken out of KGS completely.

If you want to limit who gets in the room, that's exactly what the private rooms are for.

[Warfreak2]

KGS doesn't have the feature to use a blacklist for room access. Either the room is open to everyone or access must be controlled by a whitelist. I don't think it would be productive to make any KGS feature requests here because it's pretty well known that WMS has very little time to actively work on KGS. I'm heartened that he's appeared in this thread though, and on a positive note I have never received any discrimination, homophobic or otherwise, from any KGS admin.

[shapenaji]

Room owners can't boot because if their room is public, they should let in anybody. That's what a public room means. If somebody misbehaves, they need to ask an admin to help, and the misbehaving user will be taken out of KGS completely.

If you want to limit who gets in the room, that's exactly what the private rooms are for.

I'll take Warfreak's point, feature requests are not really the purview of this topic. But, if the argument for making the room private was that Admin's would need to do too much work policing, then it seems for certain "controversial" social rooms, then there should be a balance between letting everyone in to say what they like, and letting people in only by fiat.

[deja]

Room owners can't boot because if their room is public, they should let in anybody. That's what a public room means. If somebody misbehaves, they need to ask an admin to help, and the misbehaving user will be taken out of KGS completely.

If you want to limit who gets in the room, that's exactly what the private rooms are for.

I'll take Warfreak's point, feature requests are not really the purview of this topic. But, if the argument for making the room private was that Admin's would need to do too much work policing, then it seems for certain "controversial" social rooms, then there should be a balance between letting everyone in to say what they like, and letting people in only by fiat.

Don't you really mean a "balance" between those who wish the room didn't exist at all and those who wish to have the room without being hassled? Just how would such a balance work? Either the room is allowed as intended without the constant need to protect against those who want it shut down or the room is not allowed at all. There's really no compromise here, no half room. It's kind of difficult to negotiate peaceful coexistence when one of the parties wishes the other didn't exist.

[hyperpape]

'Controversy' is such a terrible word because people's use is inconsistent. Some people use it in such a way that an idea that's opposed solely by stupid people counts as a controversy, others will say "that's not controversial, only stupid people doubt it."

I'm sure shapenaji will clarify his comments, but as far I can tell, he might just be saying that it would be nice if everyone well-behaved could join without complications, while saying that there would be a lot of poorly behaved people.

[shapenaji]

to clarify, (as predicted)

deja: no, I don't, I mean a delegation of the powers to control the room to those who take part in its discussions.

The balance is between a system which forces one to run to a KGS admin every time someone starts trolling the room and a system where people are unable to wander into the discussion.

Ideally, you want people to come in, bring their open mind and join the community, without having to go through a representative of the room. But if there's a danger of regular disruption, then the group should be allowed to police itself.

To use a computing analogy,

right now it's either rwxrw---- or rwxrwxrwx, can't we find something in between?

Like perhaps, rwxrw-r--

hyperpape:

By controversial, I mean that which is likely to generate conflict. It's not the quality of the counter-argument, it's the quantity. If KGS is worried about a group attracting trolls and they don't want to spend the manpower on it, then they can delegate the ability to remove write access from the room. "room-mute", without paying off the trolls by removing the group from public access.

Not asking everyone to get along... I just think there are levels of access which can be used to address these kinds of issues.

[deja]

To use a computing analogy,

right now it's either rwxrw---- or rwxrwxrwx, can't we find something in between?

Like perhaps, rwxrw-r--

Don't you really mean: rw-rw-rw- or rwxrwxrwx? sorry, couldn't resist.

deja: no, I don't, I mean a delegation of the powers to control the room to those who take part in its discussions.

The balance is between a system which forces one to run to a KGS admin every time someone starts trolling the room and a system where people are unable to wander into the discussion.

Ideally, you want people to come in, bring their open mind and join the community, without having to go through a representative of the room. But if there's a danger of regular disruption, then the group should be allowed to police itself.

So admins specific to that room, who come from that room, and have full admin powers? I like that idea.

[hyperpape]

Yeah, Shapenaji, either use is ok--that neither use is obviously wrong is part of what makes the situation irritating. It's just a very awkward difference of usage.

[giseki]

I was booted from KGS because my username was lezanime.

The moderator started by (privately) asking for an explanation for my username...to which i replied it represents my love for lesbian romance in anime...ie simoun. maria sama ga miteru, sasamaki koto, aoi hana, candy boy, strawberry panic, kasimasi etc

To which the moderator responded by requesting i change my username or i will be banned, when i asked for an explanation as to why it should be changed...they responded with a repeat request and no explanation.

i then emailed admin an "Sadaharu Wakisaka: Admin seventeen" thinking that perhaps the lez part might be considered disparaging to lesbians but they cleared that up by saying that whether it was lesbian or lez - referring to lesbian anime in the username was inappropriate in front of, potentially, five year old children. here(reads bottom to top) is the complete transcript of our correspondence:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadaharu Wakisaka

what you don't seem to understand, is that many people have a username refer to an particular anime or movie or book or celebrity etc...however because my username referred to a homosexual genre of television i was banned... what i would like from you is confirmation of the gokgs stance on this policy.

Also can you supply me with a link to the gokgs terms of service please.

thank you

From: KGS Support Email <admin@gokgs.com>
To: greg griffin
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2012, 2:07
Subject: Re: homophobic admin abuse

　Hello,

I am telling you that you don't have any reasons to introduce these
anime(s) with your description "lezanime" or "lezbiananime" in the GO
server.
I hope you'll remain calm and not to do this again.

Regards,

Sadaharu Wakisaka: Admin seventeen

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 9:59 AM, greg griffin <gpgriffin81@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> just for clarification, if you are suggesting that i am advertising erotic
> or pornographic anime you would be incorrect.
>
> ________________________________
> From: KGS Support Email <admin@gokgs.com>
> To: greg griffin
> Sent: Friday, 29 June 2012, 1:55
> Subject: Re: homophobic admin abuse
>
> Hello Greg,
>
> Our Terms of service says that our server is familly-oriented.
> Thus it means 5 years old girls and boys are on the same room.
> Do you think you can advertise your "lezanime" in primary school?
> You'd probably speak a different word to explain.
>
> Regards,
>
> Sadaharu Wakisaka: Admin seventeen
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 9:44 AM, greg griffin
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> i was banned by the mod/admin 'BigDoug' from playing go on your website
>> because my login name was "lezanime"
>>
>> Lezanime represents, as i explained to the moderator, my appreciation for lesbian
>> romance stories in anime( maria sama ga miteru, simoun, aoi hana,
>> sasamekikoto, kasimasi, candy boy etc) . I would like to know how this is
>> inappropriate for gokgs as BigDoug claimed before he banned me from the
>> website. Or is homophobia a general policy at gokgs.com?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------


I didn't get any further reply from the kgs admin in regards to this matter...does anyone think this is homophobia or am i overreacting...?

[AmyTS]

Hi, I'm Amy. For those who aren't aware, I am a lesbian trans woman. I am one of the room owners of Rainbow Friends alongside Warfreak2. I saw the tussle in EGR and want to weigh in.

I, a lesbian, disagree with your assertion that the admins are homophobic. I know BigDoug and he is absolutely accepting of me and my life. In addition, at least two of the admins are members of Rainbow Friends. I believe this situation is a misunderstanding.

The anime you promoted is Aoi Hana. I am not directly familiar with this anime or the manga, but it was originally published in Manga Erotics F. Take a moment and think about what that suggests to an admin who also isn't familiar with this and looks at Wikipedia (like I just did).

You also promoted Kuttsukiboshi. From the description on wikipedia, this is absolutely not romance and is instead erotica.

Erotica doesn't belong in the EGR, lesbian or otherwise. Put another way, lesbianism isn't really at issue here.

It has long been KGS policy, for better or worse, that politics, religion, and the promotion or denouncement of any political movement (such as equality for LGBT minorities) doesn't belong in EGR. Such discussions are nearly always moved to another room. I fully understand your disagreement with the admins, but you're fighting the wrong battle.

I don't know what the admins were thinking. Maybe they overreacted and wanted to play it safe. Maybe it was a misinterpretation of the meaning behind your name and the reasons you're using it. It was not immediately obvious to me, from the chat, that you are not a pervert promoting that which arouses you. On the face of it, that is what it looked like, and so I find the admin's actions reasonable.

If you are indeed an advocate for LGBT equality, let this go and join us in Rainbow Friends. I have already given you access. If you can do that, then I'll advise the admins that this is nothing more than a misunderstanding. We can move forward on this, but I need you to pick your battles. You need to stop promoting LGBT issues in EGR, and you absolutely need to stop naming erotic anime on KGS.

[giseki]

Hi Amy

I am aware of who you are as i have been a member of KGS for few months.

I can assure you, if are still not aware, i am not a pervert - lol. Well, maybe I am... depending on your views. Personally the only sexual behaviour that i find abhorrent is non consensual sex. That is something that i have never and will never take part in. That clears me of being a pervert..imo

I think this probably is a misunderstanding. Also you clearly aren't aware of what took place. Before any (completely justified as they would have been)warnings were given on my conduct BigDoug(privately) ordered me to change my username or he would ban me. I was extremely angry with Big Doug's tone. He gave me no time to argue (privately) my case with him and therefore forced me to email admin. The response from admin may have been a language problem but it angered me further. There was no political talk in EGR, just anime talk. One that should not have contained kuttsukiboshi i agree. Also I was not the instigator of the anime chat.

I appreciate you giving me access to rainbow friends, as i have spoken with you before( you probably wont remember...I'm not a regular on KGS) I know you are a kind person but I still can't access anything unless the ban is lifted.

I realise kuttsukiboshi was a mistake but aoi hana is not an anime that should be considered erotic. nor were any of the other anime I recommended.

I would be happy for this all to be forgotten, my access restored and my username to be left as it is.

such a fuss...lol

[Joaz Banbeck]

I was booted from KGS because my username was lezanime...

No. You were booted because you refused to comply with an admin's instructions.

I'm not saying that I agree with the admin. Nor am I saying that I personally have any problems with your name.

If we are going to criticize Big Doug - or anyone else for that matter - let's at least be accurate.

[giseki]

I was booted from KGS because my username was lezanime...

No. You were booted because you refused to comply with an admin's instructions.

I'm not saying that I agree with the admin. Nor am I saying that I personally have any problems with your name.

If we are going to criticize Big Doug - or anyone else for that matter - let's at least be accurate.

Well...considering the instructions were to change my username or be booted I would say that was pretty accurate.

[shapenaji]

I was booted from KGS because my username was lezanime...

No. You were booted because you refused to comply with an admin's instructions.

I'm not saying that I agree with the admin. Nor am I saying that I personally have any problems with your name.

If we are going to criticize Big Doug - or anyone else for that matter - let's at least be accurate.

I disagree, she absolutely complied with Big Doug's instructions.

Big Doug said "Change your username or I'll boot you". Giseki was given a choice, and she took one of the options.

Giseki now, (quite rightly imo) contends that the choice she was offered was an overreach of KGS policies.

lezanime may mean something to Giseki in terms of erotica etc...

But it wasn't advertising erotica that got Giseki in trouble. It was merely the prefix "lez". It's impossible to know the context there. "Lesbian" is inoffensive, unless giseki was out telling folks to watch mature subject matter, I don't see how you could infer mature subject matter from her name.

I really hope lesbian isn't a dirty word.

[daal]

While I agree with Shapenaji that the word "lesbian" shouldn't be raising eyebrows, a google search for "lezanime" does bring up pornographic sites in the top results (searching for "lesbian" doesn't btw.), and although the KGS TOS only specifically prohibits "pornographic text (including URLs of pornographic web sites) this does seem to be borderline.

The google search also came up with a link to giseki's KGS account, showing that she's used the nickname for almost a year. Maybe somebody complained.

In any case, I don't think that this is a matter of homophobia. Wouldn't similar heterosexual nicknames would get the same treatment? Actually, I suspect that any nickname, offensive or not, with a blatant and specifically sexual main connotation, would not pass the litmus test of many admins.

I also don't really see what the big deal is. Why not just choose the name of one of your favorite characters? Most of us will think it's a go player.