Trouble making shape in large framework

[Tangerine]

I (white) played this game with fwiffo (black), another forum member. We would both appreciate any helpful comments.

Although I think I was doing well until I made a reading mistake that caused me to resign, I was not very happy with the amount of effort it took to make a stable shape in the center. He was very thick, but there was a lot of open space. Perhaps if I made better shape, I wouldn't have been pressed into a reading blunder.

Or maybe I let him have too much thickness early on, and I was too greedy considering that?

Thanks for taking a look!

http://www.dragongoserver.net/sgf.php?gid=631796

[fwiffo]

And as for my questions regarding this game... I prefer to play a territorial style, but often fail to do so and end up with a game like this with a bunch of influence early in the game and don't know what to do with it. I'm always feel like I'm doing it wrong... I felt unsatisfied with how I was using influence in this game, even though my blind squirrel eventually did find a nut.

[Loons]

Just my 2 bits:

I dislike your joseki choice at 14 on this board. I would jump (E14), into that family of joseki. Maybe if you don't like those joseki, a double approach variation seems perhaps better than diving into the corner directly.

Relatedly, there does not seem to be a well-functioning pincer for move 24. Black seems to get a satisfying result whatever happens.

At move 30, I think c7 is worth more to you dead than alive. If you simply jump out to f10, black is split on the left and the result seems ok for white. The result as played to 41 it appears black`s thickness is well superior.

Trivially, I think G18 is often G17 followed by black H16, white tenuki (though yours might be better or ok on the board). The game already seems hard for white. Also, O16 I think may not be so good a move when you really, really don`t want to take the corner - it feels like the two white stones are hurting eachother.

Fwiffo, I think you played quite a good game, though I have not looked past move 50 (our ranks are too close for me to really comment whatever fighting happens).

Edit: Fwiffo, you were too kind to white in the top right. Then you both made mistakes. I like the quote "In kyu games, it's not who made the most mistakes but who made the last mistake".

[Shaddy]

Some general statements first. Black is ridiculously thick in the center in this game- it will be hard for white to make shape, because the stones which need to do this have almost no shape to begin with. Also there's not much black around to get forcing moves off of, which is where a lot of shape comes from - exploiting your opponent's weaknesses rather than making yourself strong. You might think of white's situation as drowning in a lake- if black gently keeps him down, white is dead in the water, but if you try too hard you might end up giving him enough leverage to escape. I like black's result on the left in the beginning - seems too good, too much influence.

And a note that I forgot to put int the sgf: at move 89 or so, black should take the ponnuki instead of connecting two stones, because then he can jump into the bottom and ruin a lot of it.

(;FF[4]GM[1]PC[Dragon Go Server: http://www.dragongoserver.net/]DT[2011-02-21,2011-02-23]GN[Scircles-fwiffo-631796-20110223]GC[Game ID: 631796, rated]PB[Fwiffo (fwiffo)]PW[Scircles (Scircles)]BR[4 kyu]WR[4 kyu]OT[Japanese byoyomi: 30 days + 1 day per move and 10 extra periods]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.5]RE[B+Resign];B[pd];W[dq];B[qp];W[op];B[pn];W[qq];B[rq];W[pq]
;B[rr]C[If you want to play here, then r6 instead of q6 cause this way leaves r8 which is painful later. This shows up usually with the chinese opening];W[kq]C[I don't like this for white, he's really low. M4 maybe.];B[dd];W[cf];B[ch];W[cc];B[cd];W[dc];B[ed];W[bd];B[be];W[bc]
;B[ce];W[fc];B[do];W[cm];B[bo];W[fp];B[en];W[cj]
(;B[dl]C[Just strengthening white unnecessarily if you want to attack this group: play something like g6 instead if that's what you want. Of course the result is good anyway, so this is fine];W[cl];B[dj];W[ci];B[di];W[bh];B[cg];W[bg];B[df];W[dk];B[ek]
;W[ck];B[el];W[ko];B[hc];W[gb];B[km];W[pf];B[ph];W[nd]
(;B[oe]C[It's very hard to play this move because r17 now gives w really good shape and compresses black painfully. Normal is r17.];W[of];B[ne];W[oh];B[pi];W[oi]
(;B[oj];W[nj];B[ok];W[mh]
(;B[me]C[Slow. R16 is a good point];W[qc];B[pc];W[qd];B[hb];W[pb];B[ob];W[qb];B[nc];W[ji];B[li]
;W[lh];B[kh];W[ki];B[lj]
(;W[ih];B[kg];W[lf];B[kf];W[im];B[il];W[jl]
(;B[ik];W[jk];B[jm];W[ij];B[hm];W[lk];B[mk];W[ll];B[mj];W[in]
;B[le];W[if];B[qe];W[pe];B[qf];W[qg];B[rg];W[rh];B[pg];W[qh]
;B[og];W[nf];B[ng])
(;B[jm]C[Black's a bit too thin in the middle to kill, but he can probably get an exchange with the bottom side.]))
(;W[jg];B[kg];W[kf];B[lg];W[lf];B[mg];W[mf];B[nh]
;W[nf]C[an idea?];B[jf];W[ig];B[mi]))
(;B[qd])
(;B[rd])
(;B[md];W[qc];B[qd]))
(;B[pj]C[Just let him push you along the 4th line. Hane gives him leverage.]))
(;B[qc]
;W[nf]C[White's thin]))
(;B[gn];W[hp];B[bk]))

[Joaz Banbeck]

With apologies to Shaddy, I disagree with some of his comments...

(;FF[4]GM[1]PC[Dragon Go Server: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dragongoserver.net/">http://www.dragongoserver.net/</a><!-- m -->]DT[2011-02-21,2011-02-23]GN[Scircles-fwiffo-631796-20110223]GC[Game ID: 631796, rated]PB[Fwiffo (fwiffo)]PW[Scircles (Scircles)]BR[4 kyu]WR[4 kyu]OT[Japanese byoyomi: 30 days + 1 day per move and 10 extra periods]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.5]RE[B Resign];B[pd];W[dq];B[qp];W[op];B[pn];W[qq];B[rq];W[pq];B[rr];W[kq];B[dd];W[cf];B[ch]C[JB: D5 is theoretically better.];W[cc];B[cd];W[dc];B[ed];W[bd];B[be];W[bc];B[ce];W[fc];B[do];W[cm];B[bo]C[JB: An attacking joseki ( I mention this for future reference )];W[fp];B[en];W[cj](;B[dl]C["Just strengthening white unnecessarily if you want to attack this group: play something like g6 instead if that's what you want. Of course the result is good anyway, so this is fine"
JB: I disagree with Shaddy on this one. You connect two groups to get massive wall. I like it. If he does anything but submit, you slice him apart.];W[cl];B[dj];W[ci];B[di];W[bh];B[cg];W[bg];B[df];W[dk];B[ek];W[ck];B[el];W[ko]C[JB: Big, but perhaps over-concentrated. I would have played O17.];B[hc]C[JB: Arrrggghhh!!! A terrible move - bad for at least four reasons.
1)You cannot attack the white group, it is alive in the corner. You are just forcing it to come out and neutralizeyour wall.
2) Your wall gives you advantages in a fight. So to use it, you must pick a fight. Play H4, making him retreat into the corner or start a running fight in your 'hood.
3) With his tobi, he is one move away from securing big territory. That, according to proverb, is the optimal time to invade: when he has made maximum investment but has yet to reap the rewards. So you invade at H4.
4) You played a fighting joseki with B5. He is alive on one side of it, so if B5 has any meaning, you must attack the stones on the other side of it. Again, H4.]TR[hp](;W[gb]C[JB: Not so great a move by white either. It ignores an opportunity to stroll out into the middle and destroy black's influence. See variation.];B[km]C[JB: THis misuses the wall. You want to pick a fight, not encourage him to make 4th or 5th rank territory, H4 still looks good. Or you could play the simpla oba at R11. Or connect and extend your wall with F16.];W[pf];B[ph]C[JB:Yes! Attack!];W[nd](;B[oe];W[of];B[ne];W[oh];B[pi];W[oi](;B[oj]C[JB: Good move! Don't let Shaddy talk you into being a wimp.];W[nj];B[ok];W[mh](;B[me]C["Slow. R16 is a good point"
JB: I kinda like it as you played it. Slow, but thematic.];W[qc](;B[pc]C[JB: May be the wrong direction. You have an open skirt at H18. See variation.];W[qd];B[hb];W[pb];B[ob];W[qb];B[nc](;W[ji]C[JB: Seems a bit thin. See variation.

*** End comments ***];B[li];W[lh];B[kh];W[ki];B[lj](;W[ih];B[kg];W[lf];B[kf];W[im];B[il];W[jl](;B[ik];W[jk];B[jm];W[ij];B[hm];W[lk];B[mk];W[ll];B[mj];W[in];B[le];W[if];B[qe];W[pe];B[qf];W[qg];B[rg];W[rh];B[pg];W[qh];B[og];W[nf];B[ng])(;B[jm]C[Black's a bit too thin in the middle to kill, but he can probably get an exchange with the bottom side.]))(;W[jg];B[kg];W[kf];B[lg];W[lf];B[mg];W[mf];B[nh];W[nf]C[an idea?];B[jf];W[ig];B[mi]))(;W[qg]C[JB: Take the double-sente move, secure your eye space and your connection to friends.]))(;B[qd];W[pc];B[oc];W[ob];B[nc];W[rd];B[re];W[rc];B[qe]))(;B[qd])(;B[rd])(;B[md];W[qc];B[qd]))(;B[pj]C[Just let him push you along the 4th line. Hane gives him leverage.]))(;B[qc];W[nf]C[White's thin]))(;W[gd];B[kc];W[gf]))(;B[gn];W[hp];B[bk]))

[Tangerine]

Thanks so much for all of your comments!

[Dusk Eagle]

I wanted to analyze the hane on the right side, but the variations were long so I ended up making an sgf, and then reviewing a bit of the game. Not sure how helpful my comments are here, but hopefully you can compare them with your own ideas and judge which is better.

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=750

[Bill Spight]

Some thoughts.

(;AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]SZ[19]GM[1]CA[ISO8859-1]FF[4]ST[2]PM[0]KM[0.5]DT[2011-02-21,2011-02-23]RE[B+Resign]FG[259:]RU[Japanese]GN[Scircles-fwiffo-631796-20110223]GC[Game ID: 631796, rated]OT[Japanese byoyomi: 30 days + 1 day per move and 10 extra periods]WR[4 kyu]PC[Dragon Go Server: http://www.dragongoserver.net/]PB[Fwiffo (fwiffo)]BR[4 kyu]PW[Scircles (Scircles)]
;B[pd]
;W[dq]
(
;C[*** Black has great leeway, but this invites a good move by White. See variations.]B[qp]
;W[op]
(
;C[*** See variations.]B[pn]
;W[qq]
;B[rq]
;W[pq]
;C[*** Leaves a weakness.]B[rr]
;W[kq]
;B[dd]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[cf]
;B[ch]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[cc]
;B[cd]
;W[dc]
;B[ed]
;W[bd]
;B[be]
;W[bc]
;B[ce]
;W[fc]
;B[do]
;W[cm]
;B[bo]
;W[fp]
;B[en]
;W[cj]
;B[dl]
;W[cl]
;B[dj]
(
;C[*** Bad shape. See variation.]W[ci]
;B[di]
;W[bh]
;B[cg]
;W[bg]
;B[df]
;W[dk]
;B[ek]
;W[ck]
;B[el]
(
;C[*** Thin. See variations.]W[ko]
;B[hc]
(
;C[*** Too passive. See variation.]W[gb]
;B[km]
(
;C[*** See variations.]W[pf]
;B[ph]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[nd]
;B[oe]
;W[of]
;B[ne]
;W[oh]
;B[pi]
;W[oi]
(
;C[*** Other commentators are right. The simple extension is better.]B[oj]
;W[nj]
;B[ok]
;W[mh]
(
;C[*** See variation.]B[me]
;W[qc]
;B[pc]
;W[qd]
;B[hb]
(
;C[*** This feels like aji keshi.]W[pb]
;B[ob]
;W[qb]
;B[nc]
;C[*** Oops! End of comments.]W[ji]
;B[li]
;W[lh]
;B[kh]
;W[ki]
;B[lj]
;W[ih]
;B[kg]
;W[lf]
;B[kf]
;W[im]
;B[il]
;W[jl]
;B[ik]
;W[jk]
;B[jm]
;W[ij]
;B[hm]
;W[lk]
;B[mk]
;W[ll]
;B[mj]
;W[in]
;B[le]
;W[if]
;B[qe]
;W[pe]
;B[qf]
;W[qg]
;B[rg]
;W[rh]
;B[pg]
;W[qh]
;B[og]
;W[nf]
;B[ng]
;C[Result: B+Resign]N[RESULT]
)
(
;W[kh]
)

)
(
;B[md]
)

)
(
;B[pj]
)

)
(
;W[nf]
;B[nd]
;W[nh]
)

)
(
;W[ql]
)

(
;W[qi]
)

(
;W[oi]
)

(
;W[mh]
)

)
(
;C[*** Break sector lines.]W[gd]
)

)
(
;C[*** Prudent, given the Black wall.]W[hp]
)

(
;C[*** Solid.]W[gc]
)

(
;C[*** Attack the weakness.]W[ql]
)

)
(
;W[di]
;B[ci]
;W[dk]
;B[ej]
;W[ek]
;B[fj]
;W[fk]
)

)
(
;W[ef]
;B[fd]
;W[ck]
)

)
(
;C[*** Not that White should play here new, but this exposes the weakness of the Black group.]W[ql]
;B[qn]
)

)
(
;B[dd]
)

(
;B[cd]
)

(
;B[dn]
)

)
(
;B[dd]
)

(
;B[cd]
)

(
;C[*** Looking to get a response.]B[dn]
(
;W[fp]
;C[***and then play here.]B[dd]
)
(
;W[co]
;B[dd]
)

)

)

[Shaddy]

hmm, i shouldn't post comments when i'm dead tired. Joaz is right for the most part but I still believe hane is wrong there (and reading Bill's comment, he agrees)

[Magicwand]

i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.

[Bill Spight]

i also agree with shaddy and bill.
there is no reason to make that complicated because black will gain more than enough points by playing solid.

As DuskEagle's variations suggest, if White cuts Black cannot afford to atari from the top.