Post your ladders!

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FlameBlade
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by FlameBlade »

pepi wrote:For me, my opponent played the marked black stone and got captured. The feeling is great because one (or at least I) seldom get to see an actual ladder being played out in a game of mine - that usually means someone has made a reading mistake and the game is about to end soon.

It's like realizing "OK, so those things ladders that I keep thinking about and watching for really do exist - you're looking at one right now".


That's why being able to read ladders is pretty important. I have seen a few games where 4-5 dan players would screw this kind of ladder up!

Had this kind of thing happen in a wbaduk game once against a 5d a few years ago.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by rubin427 »

In a game with my son:
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Have I ever seen anyone resign with an ear-to-ear smile before?
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I find zig-zagging my finger on the table helps me read ladders. Or maybe it's my imagination. Anyway, the good folks who play at the (primarily) Korean go center near me can't read ladders. I've never seen 2-5d's play out ladders before but it's happened to me there like three times. Here's what happened yesterday. The kibitzing made me wish I understood Korean.



...And yes, I went on to win this game.

Does anyone know the proper refutation to my 20? I'm sure it's not right.

(it was one of four and played yesterday so I may have forgotten some non-relevant moves)
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by gaius »

Nice ladder, but I don't think black moving out was reasonable there... White 39 at B12 would make miai of suffering a huge loss in the bottom right or sacrificing the entire top left.

Anyway, you refuted :w20: fairly convincingly in the game, no? The result there looks pretty terrible to white, if you ask me.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by cyclops »

Laman wrote:to add something also to the original topic of the thread, at my last tournament i happened to see this ladder (sorry, the picture is little too big to be attached with the img tag). both players SDKs, i was playing at the board #7


The old man should be crying, isn't it?

What I do recently is to keep a note on paper of the size of the territories. I'm not sure that is legal or not.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by daniel_the_smith »

gaius wrote:Nice ladder, but I don't think black moving out was reasonable there... White 39 at B12 would make miai of suffering a huge loss in the bottom right or sacrificing the entire top left.

Anyway, you refuted :w20: fairly convincingly in the game, no? The result there looks pretty terrible to white, if you ask me.


I misread W @ B12 initially. It doesn't matter when he plays it, though-- I have time to play one move to settle the ladder and then can live in gote in the corner (as I do after the ladder). But if he'd not played the ladder out it would have been MUCH better for him, I agree.

20 is a black move, I think you're referring to :w21: -- I agree that :w21: is terrible, perhaps a failed punishment of my :b20: . My move doesn't seem to get much pro play at all. (White commented during the game that the corner was terrible, so he agrees...)
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by HermanHiddema »

daniel_the_smith wrote:Does anyone know the proper refutation to my 20? I'm sure it's not right.


I would look at B15
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by mw42 »

Laman wrote:to add something also to the original topic of the thread, at my last tournament i happened to see this ladder (sorry, the picture is little too big to be attached with the img tag). both players SDKs, i was playing at the board #7


I love that picture -- those are two great smiles!
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by jts »

Time for some thread-necromancy. I'm creating an .sgf of ladders for myself to follow Kageyama's advice of reading out a ladder every day. Does anyone have some more games with ladders in them?

It doesn't have to be a game where the ladder was actually played out, just so long as the situation where the ladder is headed is complicated enough to making reading it out fun.

And while I'm making requests, could you post the game in .sgf, or at least showing the order of the last several moves, if possible? I'd like to start reading it out before the ladder stones are actually played.

And as a tangent: Kageyama recommends capturing the ladder stone immediately, whether or not your opponent plays a ladder-breaker. Does anyone follow this advice?
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by Solomon »

jts wrote:And as a tangent: Kageyama recommends capturing the ladder stone immediately, whether or not your opponent plays a ladder-breaker. Does anyone follow this advice?
I didn't learn from Kageyama, but yes 9 times out of 10 I find that capturing the ladder stone immediately is the best thing to do.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by lesenv »

move 79 and 91 gave me a ladder each.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by lorill »

here's my latest one, a joseki ladder :



It starts from move 32. It wasn't played, but it can be fun for your reading exercices, since the ladder would only appear a few moves later. I added the variation in case you don't know it.
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ladder.sgf
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by jts »

@lorill: That's a fun ladder. I think it's even better as a problem if we move L17 to K16, W pushes, and then ask whether B can hane or must protect the cut.

@lesenv: Thanks. I'm actually specifically looking for ladders that are a little bit tricky to read out because there are all sorts of extra black and white stones on or near the path of the ladder.

@araban: Good to know.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by Dusk Eagle »

lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.
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Re: Post your ladders!

Post by jts »

Dusk Eagle wrote:lorill, in your variation, isn't the ladder still good for black? I think white has to push in the top-right once more to achieve a ladder-breaker.

That's how I read it too, but I'm not just interested in ladders that work. It's important to read out ladders that don't work, too!

Even if W pushes once move, the ladder is broken again after B hanes. But if you move L17, then B has to choose between the hane and protecting the cut. (Although now that I think about it, maybe the hane is a bit too aggressive for B, anyway.)
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