[go]$$Bcm109 Move 109 - Prisoners: B=5, W=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X B X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bcm110 Move 110 - Prisoners: B=5, W=6 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | W X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
[go]$$Bcm111 Move 111 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X B O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wcm112 Move 112 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . 1 . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X 2 X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
[go]$$Bcm115 Move 115 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . . X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | B O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bcm116 Move 116 - Prisoners: B=5, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . W X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
[go]$$Bcm117 Move 117 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O B X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bcm118 Move 118 - Prisoners: B=6, W=7 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | W X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
[go]$$Bcm119 Move 119 - Prisoners: B=6, W=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O B . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wcm120 Move 120 - Prisoners: B=6, W=8 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O 3 1 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 2 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
Even if I ignore your future threats, and even if you answer my two threats here, I have no other threats. I have lost.
Thank you very much for playing. I hope that it was not too boring for you. I was a bit silly with the bottom left corner, but I thought that it was my only chance. I hope that you understand.
Edit: You moved already, but the result is the same. Thank you for playing.
Even if I ignore your future threats, and even if you answer my two threats here, I have no other threats. I have lost.
Thank you very much for playing. I hope that it was not too boring for you. I was a bit silly with the bottom left corner, but I thought that it was my only chance. I hope that you understand.
Edit: You moved already, but the result is the same. Thank you for playing.
it was very entertaining game. thank you. i hope you read whatever few comment i left and hopefully it help you see how i think.
if you wish to play me again PM me anytime. maybe one more handycap stone should give you a better chance.
thank you again.
_________________ "The more we think we know about The greater the unknown" Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
I was disappointed that Black did not continue this way. For me this is a no-brainer.
Yes, Black has three weak groups and White has two. Yes, this is the kind of position White likes. But Black's thickness is made for fighting, so fight already!
Besides, this is just the position Black aimed for two moves ago. Why the change in plans? It is one thing to stay flexible and cut your losses if conditions change, but this is just running scared. To quote chess author E. A. Znosko-Borovski, "Order, counter-order, disorder!" Not a recipe for success.
If your play is consistent, you may have erred. If it is inconsistent, you surely have erred.
I guess that I can understand this. I should have split the groups as you said.
Violence wrote:
Ugh... watching this game frustrates me to no end.
I hate Magicwand's style. I hate his attitude towards players, I hate the reasoning he gives for most of his moves, and how he happens to get away with so much in this game because I feel Kirby is getting intimidated by the bully.
Mind you, I don't hate Magicwand, it's simply what he represents, the club player who plays on instinct and reading, but always has inconsistent thinking. There was a time when I tried to get stronger by playing such players, but I would never grow conceptually. I would never have games where the outcome was decided because my opening and endgame skill was higher(though often true), it was only because I outfought in the middlegame, because these kinds of players will overplay, overplay, and overplay, until the game is simply one huge fight.
And then they review. They always assert that their moves were rooted firmly in their intuition, so whether or not they were correct or not is usually irrelevant to them, because they're so reliant on intuition that they are usually willing to accept their mistakes and lack of understanding of Go theory because they are satisfied with the way they currently play.
Playing against people like that only seems to strengthen your reading and fighting shape. You never really learn new tricks, sharpen your endgame, or develop opening prowess, the game is essentially all middlegame.
And it pains me so much because I've met Mr. Kirby. And I've seen Mr. Kirby play. He's an honest player who looks straight at the board and tries to rationally come up with each move. He's been using this method to get stronger for quite some time, and it always pains me to see a rational, thinking type player, who establishes an early lead and dominating position get beaten by a stronger player who leaves many openings and chances for punishment, but still wins in the end.
Man... if Kirby doesn't win this game, I might have to play a game with Magicwand over this summer.
I'm sorry that I didn't win the game, Violence. Thanks for your support. Though I made some stupid mistakes, I feel good about this game (even after reading the comments :-p) because I wanted to play an educational game against a stronger player, and I think that I achieved that to some degree.
HKA wrote:
I am a big fan of Eric's but I have to disagree with much of the above. Magicwand is the Simon Cowell of Malkovich - yes his opinions are expressed in often annoying ways - but he is the reason we watch. And he generously takes on all comers, and while his comments are terse, they do Malkovichingly show what he is thinking. I certainly feel like I am in his head - and such a feeling should be, on occaision, disturbing. Furthermore, he is pretty good natured when confronted with reasonable and considered criticsm.
Eric is probably stronger than I am by now, but I do not see his play as that poor - he does tend to be overly tactical in exploiting what he sees as a mistake. And his explanations have been less than convincing at times - but he has always been entertaining. And as frustrating as being beaten by this sort of player can be - we do need to learn to do it.
We all are rooting against him, or most of us I suspect, but that has made his games widely followed and full of interest. I would hate the current wave of criticism towards him to lead to him backing off - for me, he is the most interesting thing here right now.
I agree. I very much appreciate Magicwand's presence here on the forums.
[go]$$Bcm49 Move 49 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
White can't let black have C13, and has to play something like C14 himself. But the coming fight is going to be in the center, and black's move will be worth more than white's.
I actually had this exact move in mind, Joaz. I decided against it in the game, because I wasn't totally sure if my corner invasion would work (it didn't), so I didn't want to give away territory for free before-hand. I didn't know how it would turn out.
Araban wrote:
The first thing that came to my head when I read Violence's comment: Kirby
Magicwand
This cracks me up! I think I've found a new avatar:)
topazg wrote:
I'd much prefer this, so "a" isn't so awkward to handle:
[go]$$Bcm57 Move 57 - Prisoners: B=0, W=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . . O . O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . B . X a . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I opted against this, because it seemed to give white more eyespace. I thought I had to do something against the corner for sure to win. In the game, it didn't work out anyway, though, so of course the sequence you gave is better.
[go]$$Bcm77 Move 77-78 - There is no ko. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O W . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O 2 O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 1 O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | a X O O . b . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I was talking about the ko at "a" (I edited your diagram), but at least some sequences starting with "b" seem to lead to a double ko for white, so I was flawed in my reasoning anyway.
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So help a newb out here and answer some questions for me
As I read it, black has 3 eye liberties (4 eye space = big eye = 5 liberties. Then subtract 2 for white stones already in it). Plus one internal liberty plus one internal ko.
White has 1 eye liberty plus one internal liberty plus one external liberty plus one internal ko.
So the score for the capture race is black 4 + internal ko and white 3 + internal ko. Black has more exclusive liberties, so he is the "favorite".
Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?
Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)
Question 3: Not so much a question. But however I read it out, black is at a distinct advantage.
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Then this: when white fills in the internal liberty at 5, it means he gives black a direct ko for his own death.
[go]$$Wc 1 ko threat somewhere, 2 answers. 4 ko threat, white ignores $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 6 O X 5 O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Wc White is in a direct ko for his own death. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 2 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 1 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | X . X O O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And it's hard to see any ko threat white can muster worth that much. So instead, it ends up like this. White will tennuki. But whenever black wants, he can force the direct ko. So black definitely has the advantage here, since he takes first.
[go]$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 5 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 2 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 1 4 X 3 O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Posts: 1848 Location: Bellevue, WA Liked others: 90 Was liked: 837
Rank: AGA 5d
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Numsgil wrote:
Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?
Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)
Both of these questions can be answered simultaneously. If Black plays E4, then White will just fill the ko and it becomes seki. Actually it's not seki, but it's fake seki because the E10 group is pretty much dead, so E4 really does nothing.
Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?
Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)
Both of these questions can be answered simultaneously. If Black plays E4, then White will just fill the ko and it becomes seki. Actually it's not seki, but it's fake seki because the E10 group is pretty much dead, so E4 really does nothing.
Oh, I see now. If it goes E4->connect ko->black D1 then white can capture black's group because of a shortage of liberties.
[go]$$Wcm86 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . X . X . O . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X O O . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . X X . O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | X O . O . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 1 X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is an interesting ko. Just looking at the corner, it has the potential of becoming a 10,000 year ko. Black has approach moves before that happens, however. It is complicated by the fact that the Black stones on the left side might die. If Black captures all the White stones in the corner, then those stones live. OTOH, if White lives in the corner by making a local seki, then if those Black stones die, the seki becomes a false seki and the Black stones in the corner die. Conversely, if those Black stones die locally, the only hope to save them is to capture the White stones in the corner. If they live, then the corner ko is smaller.
This interdependence between the corner and the side raises the tricky question of which it is better to play in. My feeling at the time was that the fight in the side and center should come first. However, because of the interdependence, I could not say so definitively. Yesterday I experimented with some interdependent positions with fewer Black stones at stake on the side. Even in such a position it was better for each player to play on the side first.
So in this position I think that White should leave the ko and attack the Black group on the side. Perhaps the best play is one he made later, at "a", to take away Black's eye potential there.
What about the corner if Black is alive on the side? There is a saying in go that a three move approach ko is no ko. To kill White Black has to make four approach moves. After that there will be an enormous ko which White takes first. Even if Black can win that ko, playing an approach move is only a large endgame move. A more practical goal is seki, and then playing an approach move is a middle endgame move.
_________________ The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on? — Winona Adkins
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O . X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . a X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So help a newb out here and answer some questions for me
As I read it, black has 3 eye liberties (4 eye space = big eye = 5 liberties. Then subtract 2 for white stones already in it). Plus one internal liberty plus one internal ko.
Black has 1 liberty in the eye, at "a".
Quote:
White has 1 eye liberty plus one internal liberty plus one external liberty plus one internal ko.
So the score for the capture race is black 4 + internal ko and white 3 + internal ko. Black has more exclusive liberties, so he is the "favorite".
As Araban has pointed out, White can live by filling the ko. Even if the Black stones one the side were alive, there is no such thing as the capturing race in the corner. Either player can aim for seki. In such a case Black can make a kind of 10,000 year ko by filling in White's outside liberty.
Quote:
Question 1: Why are you fighting over the ko when there are still outside liberties to be filled? Isn't a black move at E4 worth more than taking the ko?
Just looking at the corner, if Black wants to capture the White stones he has to take the ko first to prevent White from making seki.
Quote:
Question 2: Black can use the external liberty of white as a ko threat, right? (E4)
No. How would White reply to it?
Quote:
Question 3: Not so much a question. But however I read it out, black is at a distinct advantage.
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | 3 O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
is a mistake. As it is, Black has one liberty in the eye.
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O 1 X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | O O X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | 3 2 X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
[go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . . O X . X X O . X . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . X O O O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O . O O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X X O O . O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | X X O X X X X X . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | O O O O O O X . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . O . O X X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | O X O O X X . . . X . . . . . X . O . | $$ | X X X O O X . . . . . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . 4 X X O X X X X . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | X . X . O O O O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After Black has 2 liberties in the eye. White has spent one move to give Black a liberty.
_________________ The Adkins Principle: At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on? — Winona Adkins
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