110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Let's hold back a little bit.
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Marcus
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here goes! Maybe I can salvage some of this ...
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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Reduce, reduce, reduce... Strengthen my group, as well!

Let's shrink black's territory to zero!

P.S. I played the last move I did kind of passive and solidly so that I would be free to reduce from this side. I could have tried to be more aggressive or take territory. But I still have that option for later.

Meanwhile, black territory to zero!
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Marcus
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Asking nothing, leave me be
Taking everything in my stride
Don't need reason, don't need rhyme
Ain't nothing I would rather do

Time to cash in a few things, hopefully in sente ... :D
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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yep, it's his right to have this move. I tenuki'd before, so I had to pay this back, anyway.
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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

I think I'm ahead by about 10 points. It's still mid-game, though, so we'll see what happens.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Post #139 now unhidden.

Kirby,
Kirby wrote:I tenuki'd before, so I had to pay this back, anyway.
Not if you had just played :w1: nobi instead of :w66: atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. , . . . . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
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Kirby
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Re:

Post by Kirby »

EdLee wrote:Post #139 now unhidden.

Kirby,
Kirby wrote:I tenuki'd before, so I had to pay this back, anyway.
Not if you had just played :w1: nobi instead of :w66: atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. , . . . . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


Then he has the option of playing on the left first, doesn't he? I suppose there's the benefit that I could play this when he tenukis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$. , . . . . . , . . . |
$$. . . . . . . O . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X W . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O O . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]


But do you think that this was worth more than sente to break up his moyo?
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Marcus
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm71 Prisoner Count: :black: :w2:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Completely doing the cash-in thing right now ... though this is clearly endgame play (though I'm quite sure it's sente).

Perhaps I'm on tilt ... we'll see how things go ...
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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O B . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X C B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Kirby,
Kirby wrote:But do you think that this was worth more than sente to break up his moyo?
At that time, you had at least 2 ways into the center, so maybe it was not so big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Marcus
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Marcus »

Thinking time. How are you feeling about the game now, Kirby? It's definitely not the same game we were discussing earlier.

I have a few thoughts ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . f . . . O O |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | . . . . d . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . a . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . c . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, lots of interesting points, some endgame and some not ... I think I'm going to try and evaluate the board, though ... maybe I'll count! Or, at least, count how much cash Kirby has already made off with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count: :black: :w3:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | S S S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S |
$$ | S S S S O O . . . . . . . . . S S O O |
$$ | S S S . . X O O X X . . X O O O O X . |
$$ | S S S O . X X X O , . . X . X O X . X |
$$ | S S S . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | S S . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , S S S |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | S S S S . O O X . . . O X . X X X . . |
$$ | S S S O . . . . . X X X O X O X . X . |
$$ | S S S . . X . . . . X O O . O O X . . |
$$ | S S S O . . . . . . . . . S S S O O S |
$$ | S S S . . . . . . . . . . S S S S S S |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


W has about 56 points in cash plus 6.5 komi. That's 62.5 points that I have to match ... and don't forget I'm assuming that I get to reduce as far as that 56 ... I haven't looked at potential ... gonna think hard here.
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Kirby
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

EdLee wrote:Kirby,
Kirby wrote:But do you think that this was worth more than sente to break up his moyo?
At that time, you had at least 2 ways into the center, so maybe it was not so big:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O X X . . X O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X X X O , . . X . X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


That could be the case. It's hard for me to say for sure. Of course I agree that extending is better locally, unless I was absolutely sure of getting gote. In that case, maybe it would have been fine to do even this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$ | . . . @ . . . . . X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X O O . O O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think it really depends on how big sente was.

On that note, though, I do find that I tend to prefer locally suboptimal sequences if they result in sente for me.

It could be the case that I hate gote too much. I guess the only real way for me to get better at this would be to get better at comparing different parts of the board.
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Re: 110: Marcus vs Kirby - Kirby's Revenge!

Post by Kirby »

I feel OK about the game, Marcus, as long as you agree not to get too many more points.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Kirby,
I think either A or B, but not C.
Kirby wrote:maybe it would have been fine to do even this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var C
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 3 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var A
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var B
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X 2 X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X 1 . . |
$$. . X O O . O O . 3 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]

Also, the difference between D and E (the game) is huge-- 20+ points??
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Var D: :b2: tenuki
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X . X 3 . |
$$. X X X O X O X . . . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Var E: The game
$$. . . . . . X . . . . |
$$. . . . X X . . O . . |
$$. . . O X . X X X . . |
$$. X X X O X O X W 3 . |
$$. . X O O . O O 1 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . 2 4 . |
$$. . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------[/go]
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