I've read Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals of go ...

daal · Post by **daal** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:53 am

I was thinking of posting about how my reading still sucks after 3 years of go, and then in the context of this thread about whether fundamentals exist, realized that despite all the tsumego I do and all the books I read and all the games I play and review, Kageyama might not be wrong about calling me one of the lazy students who won't get anywhere. His suggestion was: "Confine your practice to this one exercise every day until you can read the long-distance ladder in Dia. 1 with the greatest of ease, right out to its end." Honest answer: did you do it?

adoreme · Post by **adoreme** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:01 am

Yes, I did. Took his advice there and practiced it a week with many ladder problems and I must say this ladder reading skill won quite a few games already against opponents around my level who simply misread or hoped for the best while I could be sure of the outcome.

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:20 am

I would say "sort of". I trace the laddered player's path with my eyes until it gets near stones, where I break into reading proper. I think he considers me a hopeless cheater.

(And practicing hasn't really helped, maybe I have never been diligent enough.)

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:36 am

For me, ladders which bend are really difficult to read correctly

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:48 am

I won most of my handicap games as White with the ability to properly read out ladders and I must say I followed Kageyama's advice to some extent. Sadly, in the end it bored me because visualizing simple ladders is not very entertaining and I was too lazy to search for good ladder problems.
But here is one out of my games ^^

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black's last move is marked $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X X O O . . . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . O X X . X O . O O . | $$ | . . O X . X . O . O O X X O O O X X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . O X O O X X X X . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . O X X O O . X O . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . O X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | . O X . . . . . . X . O X O . . X X . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . X X B O O . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O O O . O X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O X X O , O X . | $$ | . . X . O . . . . . . . O X . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . O O . . . . . O X . . O . . | $$ | . . O O O X X . . . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O X . X . . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . O X O O O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O . X . . O O X X O . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . X X . X X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play. (As always with these problems, Black will play to the bitter end and won't compromise.)

post scriptum:

Second one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black's last move is marked $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . X . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X . . X X X . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . X X O X X O O O X X X O O X . O . . | $$ | . X O O . X O . . , O . O X X X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O . . O . . . O . . X . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . . . . O . B X O . . | $$ | . O O X O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O O . . . . . . X O X X X X . . | $$ | . . . X O X . . . , . O O O X O . . . | $$ | . . X . X O O . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . X . . . X X X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play. (As always with these problems, Black will play to the bitter end and won't compromise.)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:58 am

It's hard for me to know when I've gotten to the stage of "greatest of ease". I'd guess that I probably haven't gotten to this stage, if it actually exists concretely. I have gotten to a stage of being able to read the latter "with some ease".

Li Kao · Post by **Li Kao** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:01 am

SDN: I see no ladder in your game. I only see a weak white group at the top and a weak white group at the bottom.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:04 am

You're right, I'm sorry. I didn't check it since my opponent made it to a ladder problem ^^

post scriptum: I changed the game a bit. It should work now.

Li Kao · Post by **Li Kao** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:16 am

SDN game 1:

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:19 am

Yes. : )

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:44 am

I did practise reading ladders but I think "...until I do it effortlessly" is impossible. There is always room for improvement in reading ladders, I can never do it effortlessly but I think I improved at it a bit.

But what I find more difficult is wide reading, as opposed to deep reading. I consider ladder reading more a kind of deep reading (even though there may be exceptions).

daal · Post by **daal** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:04 am

Just to clarify: The question is not "can you read ladders?" but rather: "did you do what Kageyama suggested?"

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:20 am

I'm sure we discussed this the last time ladders came up, but what goes through your mind when you're reading ladders? I find that any thing longer than a few steps, I can't see the ladder, but sort of mentally think "white-black-white-black..." I don't lean down or trace the board or any of that, but I have to think about it point by point after the first couple of moves.

This way is very slow, and works very poorly for ladders that run into other stones. It's also harder for me to read deeply with ladders than other shapes. Not that I'm great at reading anything, but for problems with more interesting shapes, I can keep them in my head for more moves than a simple ladder.

What is reading ladders like for those of you who've followed Kageyama's advice? It's honestly very hard for me to even practice, because I think I'm just doing it wrong. Should I be exercising my visualization by working with short ladders and working up until I can see the whole thing?

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:48 am

SoDesuNe wrote:Yes. : )

Nope! This is not a ladder. White 7 should be at J12, catching Black cleanly in a geta.

So instead of B2, Black plays J13, intending to capture the top and win on points. What does White do next? ;-)

entropi · Post by **entropi** » Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:53 am

hyperpape wrote:I'm sure we discussed this the last time ladders came up, but what goes through your mind when you're reading ladders? I find that any thing longer than a few steps, I can't see the ladder, but sort of mentally think "white-black-white-black..." I don't lean down or trace the board or any of that, but I have to think about it point by point after the first couple of moves.

This way is very slow, and works very poorly for ladders that run into other stones. It's also harder for me to read deeply with ladders than other shapes. Not that I'm great at reading anything, but for problems with more interesting shapes, I can keep them in my head for more moves than a simple ladder.

What is reading ladders like for those of you who've followed Kageyama's advice? It's honestly very hard for me to even practice, because I think I'm just doing it wrong. Should I be exercising my visualization by working with short ladders and working up until I can see the whole thing?

I think he encourages to visualize all the stones when reading the ladder and not just following the ladder intersections with eye like tic-tac-tic-tac-...

It is a different mental approach to reading. I can do it for short ladders but not for long ones, even if there are no other stones on the road of ladder.

But to be honest, whenever I have to read a ladder longer than 4-5 moves, I just use the tic-tac trick because the Kageyama method takes too long and is tiring. Maybe it is worth further practising, I don't know.

Life In 19x19

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