126. EdLee vs Loons

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

I thought I wasn't too crazy about the four variations in post 132 --
they're either OK for B, so-so for W, not so good for W, or unclear.
Also, if B gets something like :b1:, then suddenly even my corner :wc: group is weak.
So I decided to make sure my corner is OK first, take the cash, and see what B does.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . . . O . X . . . O X .
$$ | . . . . X . X . O . . X O O X O
$$ | . . O W . . . . . O . . O X X X
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B . B . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . a . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . l . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . m . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . n o . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . x X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm not entirely convinced I have to defend with eg. 'a' now (which will likely be gote, especially as Ed fixing his cut is sente) after Ed's very defensive move, pending further reading of course. I would love to take the first move on the right with 'l', 'm', 'n' or 'o'. And I am in a permanent state of wanting to play 'x'.

I'm not really sure how protective I have to be of the marked stones, anyway (as long as Ed doesn't manage to capture them in a large way).

One of my weaknesses is that I'm not protective enough of my weak stones, so I will put a fair bit more thought into this.

Edit: I thought I'd briefly mention what we're all doubtless thinking; Ed's move makes a big, carpenter's square-esque eye in the corner. Not the most unconditionally alive of shapes. I wonder if I could aim at aiming at aiming at exploiting that somehow (which might actually be a point in favour of playing a slowish defence now, but who knows.).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . b . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Just from some local speculative reading (black playing 'a' cut next, white playing 'b' cut next...), I am now feeling very against tenuki. Everything seems too volatile. :b55: just occurred to me and I'm quite enamored with it, though it has no really obvious property other than helping my top group in a centrewards sort of way. I'll sleep on it. Surely a play on the right is big.
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I guess I am a player who plays impulsively, no matter how long I spend thinking.

One thought is that Ed's lone stone on the right isn't exactly heavy; sabaki seems well possible if I play there next. And top becomes dangerous for me if Ed plays there next. My move doesn't feel slow or heavy to me, but some complications remain open; we'll see what Ed has in mind.
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Post by EdLee »

First feeling is the probe :w1:... :study:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X .
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by joppon »

Observers
Something for later. W2 is necessary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm01
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . 2 O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . 1 O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Loons, sorry about the delay. My summer has just begun its busy period.
My moves may be super slow until the end of August. Sorry! :oops:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm56 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
(p)
joppon wrote:Something for later. W2 is necessary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . 2 O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . 1 O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
No.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2: tenuki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X 0 6 8 O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . 9 X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . 3 O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O 4 1 O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

I'll quote my favorite line from Dave & Graham's game, Post #193-- viewtopic.php?f=37&t=4126&start=180
ez4u wrote:I still have no clue what is best.
I knew a long time ago that this summer would be very busy for me,
so finding the time to really study the variations has been a challenge.
Not to mention I find the current situation difficult.

I'm not sure if :w56:( :wc:) is sente, but if B tenuki:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W1
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 9 . 7 O 6 X . . .
$$ | . . . O X 8 X 4 O . . X O
$$ | . . O O W . 3 5 . O . . O
$$ | . . X . . . 1 2 . . O . .
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . .[/go]
Thanks to :wc:, W does not have to reply to :b4: at :b6:; W can cut with :w5:.
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Post by EdLee »

I've been looking at the B(a) push-and-cut, and how to fix it in sente.
This variation works, but B does not have to play it:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W1
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O
$$ | . . X a . . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . .[/go]
Instead, B can crawl with :b2: and I'm still left with the cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W1
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . .
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O
$$ | . . O O . . . . . O . . O
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 4 3 . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . .[/go]
So after searching in vain, I settled with the bamboo joint :w56:, which may not be sente. :-|
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Loons
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

No worries, as always. Hope you're having a good (if busy) time.
Ed's move is a nice threat to cut/kill my two (more) top stones. I don't like saving dame stones, but I don't like just letting 'em die, especially while Ed's life is a carpenter's square-shape (he may have to take gote in future if I save them). Maybe it's big as in should-try-and-get-it-later big. Who knows, I have a wild headache.

Quite sure I'm leaving them for later (double-gote not big, assuming it is gote for me also...).
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Post by EdLee »

Loons, thanks. Busy for sure, 'good' is relative. :mrgreen:
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by emeraldemon »

My sealed move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm56 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O 1 . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I don't know how exactly to play it, but to me this lone stone on the right seems like the vital point of the board.
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Re: 126. EdLee vs Loons

Post by Loons »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoners: :w1:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Eh, I've been wanting to play this jaunty cap for a dog's age, trying to unite my right side in purpose.

Leaving E13 sente to cut off my centre stones is a bit grim, pointing to an earlier mistake I'm unsure of. I'm not going to spend sente fixing it now, as the middle is very open.

Back to the current move, I expect some kind of local sabaki from Ed next (maybe he will find a good variation from jump->crosscut* or something), though he may also try/manage to live locally. Will be interesting. I expect sente, with which I imagine I'll revisit top-middle, and then finally c2. Of course, Ed is also playing this game...

*ie P12 O12 O11
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Post by EdLee »

First feelings: my guess is Loons thinks killing :wc: and taking the right side is bigger than giving up :bc: :bc:,
which at first glance is probably true. There are like 10,000 variations to read on the right side.
I have no choice but to take the time and read as much as I can. :-?
With W(e), B is ready to activate the aji of B(f) push W(g) B(h) atari,
so I must be very careful with the (e) side variations.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O B . B . O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . O . f O X X X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O g . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X . . . . . h . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . e . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . d b a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . X . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

After some sleep, I noticed when :black:(f) push, instead of :white:(g) block,
I had missed :white:(j) connect. So now there's renewed hope for :w58:(e).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$------------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ O . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ . O . f O X X X O . . |
$$ . . O g j O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . e . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
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Post by EdLee »

After :b4: I don't see a good reply for W, so :w1: doesn't look too promising.
Next candidate: :w58: at (k).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ X . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . X O O X O . . . |
$$ O . . O X X X O . . |
$$ . O . . O X X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 1 . O . . |
$$ . . . . 3 X 4 . . . |
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . k . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ . . . O . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$----------------------[/go]
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