A certain sabaki technique

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kwhyte
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Re: A certain sabaki technique

Post by kwhyte »

Uberdude wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
Or this, which I think isn't as easily dismissed as the others. As white I'd feel uncomfortable trying to decide how to respond (do I slide into the corner for base? Do I try to rescue the lone stone black didn't capture?)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 c . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I think :b4: is a strong move for black, especially given the support at q10. To play honte at a seems to me like a classic example of the dangers of "following joseki" without thinking about the actual position on the board. Even without q10 in place this descent is a powerful move, thought it does have a tinge of overplay: it will result in violent fighting. If white answers :b4: by blocking at c that's a nice exchange for black (though I have seen it in pro games) The idea of blocking is white still has miai of saving the cutting stone, or pincering the 2 stones on the right; that's why q10 in place makes a huge difference as that miai disappears. Fighting spirit calls for white to save the cutting stone: b is a tesuji for doing so in good shape. But then black will probably get to push at c in sente at some point which is pleasing. Here's a game of mine where I tried the descent (without q10 already) due to an unfinished joseki in an adjacent corner. http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=178771

P.S. as for what that technique is called, I've not heard a particular name but it does crop up a lot. It is an example of miai: the crude atari gives black an obvious good answer and then white is without a good move, the attachment creates 2 good moves for white, only 1 of which black can deal with.
After reading this I did a quick database search of this position (without q10). The move here is the second most common after the usually cited joseki play, and occurs pretty frequently. To my surprise, white only rarely responds by pulling the stone on the top. The clear majority of the responses were either a or b here:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O b . . |
$$ . . . . . . a X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . d . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
White a was more common, even though it allows black b - white c -black d with ugly shape as a follow-up. After that things get complicated and seem to depend on the details on the rest of the board (and the sample size in my game collection is getting too small to draw any serious conclusions) but it seems like both sides are likely to leave the top alone for awhile - it is not so much an immediate threat to pull it out but aji for later.

Some of that is likely almost circular - if the threat of pulling it out was huge black wouldn't have played this way. So one shouldn't jump to too many conclusions. Still, it surprised me that professionals seem quite willing to play the white side of this sequence, and that black doesn't choose it more often.
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Re: A certain sabaki technique

Post by gogameguru »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . W X . . . |
$$ . . . . . X X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O b . . |
$$ . . . . . . a X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . d . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The move at 'a' is mainly about making white a bit stronger in the centre, before starting a fight using the marked stone at the top. It makes miai of the right and the left so white doesn't need to be in a hurry.

Once white starts the fight at the top, it ups the ante. After that there's no way to play simple 'forcing' exchanges, there are only ways to offer a trade. So it's better to play the reinforcing moves first and not have to offer an unfavourable trade later. It's not that pros aren't interested in the top, it's just that they're very patient players.
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Re: A certain sabaki technique

Post by Numsgil »

Good comments, thanks everyone.

As for why there's an extra stone:

The book actually has the joseki diagram and this one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Attaching is a tesuji
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O 1 X . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 2 O . . |
$$ . . . . . . a . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
The book was making the point that players that know the joseki will still just atari at 'a' instead of playing 4 because they don't really understand the tesuji.

I'm not sure why I didn't just present the two diagrams instead of trying to combine them :P
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Re: A certain sabaki technique

Post by gogameguru »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Similar but different
$$ . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . W X X c . |
$$ . . . . . d X O O . . |
$$ . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 X a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I think this situation is quite a bit different to the one above, but I understand the point the book is trying to make.

White has a shortage of liberties and black has supporting stones, so black can play your move at 1, since the marked stone defends against the cut at 'a'. Continuing at 2 looks like the best way to resist. If black plays atari on either side, white will double atari and make reasonable shape, but black could just connect at 'a' and white isn't very flexible. White will probably end up having to play 'b' (and later 'c') to put up any sort of fight. If the ladder works, white could try 'd' instead (aiming to connect all the stones).

There's less implicit threat behind white's marked stone in this situation and both ways ('b' or 'd') white still feels pretty heavy to me.

Were there any other stones in the book diagram that would make white's position more flexible?
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Re: A certain sabaki technique

Post by Numsgil »

No, it wasn't a whole board problem, just that bit. Most of the book is whole board problems, but this was basically the intro to the first chapter, so I think the point was just that tesujis aren't just for corner positions and leave it at that.
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