Life In 19x19

Krama wrote:It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro

It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds.

Some Westerners have made it to higher levels. Examples: Hans Pietsch, Catalin Taranu, who made it to mid-dan pros; and Michael Redmond who made it to 9p. Redmond started his pro studies in Japan at age 13, which is a little old but similar to many. Redmond has won games with top Japanese pros, though he has never won a top title.

At a US Go Congress years ago the late Nakayama Noriyuki, a well known Japanese pro in the West, gave a lecture on how to become a really strong player. A condensed version of his answer is : 1) start young, 2) study good books, and 3) have a good teacher. At the time of this lecture we in the West lacked all three of the conditions. Despite the decades since then we still have few people starting really young, we lack really good books, and there are not many teachers capable of training pro students. In China there is an abundance of all three conditions, same for Japan and Korea. Is it surprising that the West doesn't produce many players at pro level?

As an example, compare the sport of football in Europe (soccer in the USA). Kids start playing as soon as they can run. It is played competitively throughout the school and university years. There are many coaches everywhere who can help young players develop. Unfortunately for the West, there has to be much more societal support for go. I think it is indicative that in the USA the youth go scene seems to be dominated by children of Oriental ethnic background, mostly Chinese or Korean. The families of these young people already have an appreciation of the value of the game.

It is not that I am surprised by it, but still it is sad to see that we are so much behind them.

Maybe if we are lucky we can get a person with savant syndrome who just happens to understand the game of stones on a whole new level

gowan wrote:

Krama wrote:It is really creepy to see that the best european players are about the same strength as some low level chinese pro

It will be ages before we will have such strong pros that could actually fight with the top asian pros on equal grounds.

Some Westerners have made it to higher levels. Examples: Hans Pietsch, Catalin Taranu, who made it to mid-dan pros; and Michael Redmond who made it to 9p. Redmond started his pro studies in Japan at age 13, which is a little old but similar to many. Redmond has won games with top Japanese pros, though he has never won a top title.

At a US Go Congress years ago the late Nakayama Noriyuki, a well known Japanese pro in the West, gave a lecture on how to become a really strong player. A condensed version of his answer is : 1) start young, 2) study good books, and 3) have a good teacher. At the time of this lecture we in the West lacked all three of the conditions. Despite the decades since then we still have few people starting really young, we lack really good books, and there are not many teachers capable of training pro students. In China there is an abundance of all three conditions, same for Japan and Korea. Is it surprising that the West doesn't produce many players at pro level?

As an example, compare the sport of football in Europe (soccer in the USA). Kids start playing as soon as they can run. It is played competitively throughout the school and university years. There are many coaches everywhere who can help young players develop. Unfortunately for the West, there has to be much more societal support for go. I think it is indicative that in the USA the youth go scene seems to be dominated by children of Oriental ethnic background, mostly Chinese or Korean. The families of these young people already have an appreciation of the value of the game.

P.S. I don't recall whether Mr. Nakayama mentioned the necessity of strong enough people to play with but that is important, too. Cassandra mentioned needing a large base to build a tall pyramid, which agrees with having enough players as one works up to the top. Except for the recent Western certified pros (European and USA), all of the Western-origin pros had to get training in the Orient (and were certified by Oriental go associations). The pyramid is growing, slowly. There is a big enough base in the West to produce players at roughly Oriental 1p strength, the newly created "Western" pros. There have been pro-strength players in European tournaments for a while (Fan, Guo, Taranu, Dinerchtein) and they are not head and shoulders above the pack now. This is an indication that the European base is big enough to get the top to the 1p level. The highest possible level, represented by the very top Oriental players, is at most three stones above the top of the European pyramid. Not so far away.

Round 6, Ali's game, current. He is black.

Can you please share some sgf?