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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #101 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:48 am 
Gosei
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This is a case of the 1-2-3 principle: Why not directly play Gresil's move :b3: instead of making the :b1: :w2: exchange which is clearly beneficial for white?

I'm not saying that :b3: is necessarily good, but if it is going to be played, it should be played without this weird :b1: :w2: exchange first.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #102 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Throw in for forcing moves? Yeah, I think I can get behind that. I just hope he follows through with the cut soon.


Approved.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #103 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 38A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Okay, we have enough liberties to cleanly capture the cutting stone. I think next, black will put us into atari again from on top, to build more center thickness. That said, I don't like the looks of atari-ing from the west, nor do I like our group's odds if I play anywhere else. So this move seems forced to me, and I expect E10 next. If I'm right about that, I plan to capture directly to remove that aji. That lets black connect their lower group out in gote, but there's not a lot I'm willing to do about that. If we get sealed in, we may need to start considering B14 for eyespace.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Move #38B
Post #104 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 4:06 pm 
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I approve.

As Terr says, it is forced. This runs the black stone into the side of the board and kills it with just one liberty to spare. Any other move gets our group killed.

I'm glad to read that Terr has noted that B14 is good for getting eyes. He didn't explicitly say that it is sente to kill the upper left corner, but I think that he noticed that.

So I have no worries here. I'm just going to prop up my feet and let Terr win this for us.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #105 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 7:50 pm 
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As my compatriots said, forced

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #106 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:16 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #107 Posted: Sun May 23, 2010 9:30 pm 
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Trigger for if Gresil's suggestion is accepted by both:
I capture at B10

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #108 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:17 am 
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Approved

As before ..
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #109 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 7:18 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually, maybe Gresil's marked stone is valid in that it makes a black play at 'a' sente. So 'a' seems to me to be a double-sente point for both sides.

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #110 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:49 am 
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What... are you doing, topazg?
It's clearly two points better to extend. It might even be 4 points... argh.
It's really basic to extend when atari'd in this manner, I can't believe Topazg won't spend 2 points to fix it.

No. I can't let that pass. This is way bigger than 4 points, on endgame alone. Not to mention the aji in the area.

I have no idea what topazg is thinking. This is huge!

The endgame at 5 is ginormous! Even if black exchanges 6 for 7 first, 5 still exists. However, if white has a ponnuki there instead, black can play 6 for 7 in sente, and the endgame disappears. I think it's definitely at least 4 points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 7 X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Therefore...


Can't let you do that... Star Fox!

Image


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O C . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by Violence on Mon May 24, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #111 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:56 am 
Gosei
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Violence:
You messed up the diagram. I believe this is what you were going for:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 7 X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b5: is interesting - I didn't see it before. If I were in topazg's shoes and I didn't see :b5: , I might have approved of Gresil's move even though I would personally have played the descent.

Not for players:
This also makes it even more clear to me why Violence was ok with this cut before. It's better than it first appeared to me.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #112 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:20 am 
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[go]$$Wc Move 40A - W: 22, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think W should now have 21 or 22 prisoners. I don't think I can check the original thread because it's in GD and GD has a problem with posts that have diagrams. Joaz, could you please update the prisoners in your post?

If we don't play here, black will, and then it's painful for us.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Maybe Violence wants something like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O 3 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Regardless, it seems like we don't have a lot of options in how to resist. I guess the point is, black sacrificing the extra stone gives them one more liberty, which adds that much more aji.


Edit: updated prisoners

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Last edited by Chew Terr on Mon May 24, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Move #40B
Post #113 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 12:32 pm 
Judan
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My teammate makes another pro quality move, while the black team can't agree on exactly which aji keshi move they are going to play...and they give us several stones for the privilege of settling their dispute. I strongly approve. :lol:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #114 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:50 pm 
Tengen
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Haha, this game sucks!! :)

Sheesh, I feel like a bully. I know we should probably have extended there, but I don't really want to keep correcting every move either. I was nearly tempted to swap the original cut for simply a hane, but then it would send the message that I thought the direction of play was the correct one. I think I'm going to settle for simply correcting anything to where I think it should go, but wow, so many points are going to change hands with corrections... This is by far the hardest format to play ;)
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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #115 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Violence should also consider that he might have to pay another 4 points to get his endgame followup, since his teammates don't seem to know about it (I wouldn't have seen it, though I might have corrected the atari anyway). Is this really 8 points better than the atari? I kinda doubt it, but maybe.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #116 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 2:19 pm 
Judan
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Chew Terr wrote:
Joaz, could you please update the prisoners in your post?


To the best of my recollection, the transfer of prisoner counts from GD was correct. I went though this thread and made an index of where more prisoners were awarded.

B, W, Post #
------------
07 11 01
09 11 16
11 11 41
12 11 42
12 13 56
12 15 73
14 15 80
15 15 81
15 17 83
15 18 91
17 18 95
17 22 110

At this point, black has 17 prisoners in their lid, and white has 22 in theirs. Does this count look correct?

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Offline unkx80
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #117 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't count, but I feel that Violence is overstating the value of the endgame sequence that the little brother probably can't find anyway. I would just play :b1:, because I think white will connect at :w2: anyway. Next, a is pretty large and reactivates the aji at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Should white tenuki after :bc:, then black has two choices. The first is something like this, or probably reverting to Violence's sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, black can also choose to play like this, which threaten to gorge out white'e eye space just as well. I may prefer this.

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Offline shapenaji
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #118 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 1:34 am 
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I take issue with Joaz's comment that this move is also aji keshii, it's the right move to make once you've decided to give up that stone, and it leaves some good endgame play for them in future. I expected that Violence would change this one..

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #119 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:30 am 
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to: unkx80 and observers.
i agree with you 100% on over estimating the endgame value.
i thought i was the only one who felt that way. now i know i am not the only one.

also they under estimate the value of 2 point penalty.
i am glad i am not one of the player for this game.

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Offline Gresil
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)
Post #120 Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:27 am 
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I guess black's correctional sagari adds aji. As outlined somewhere earlier, this is my last local wrong move before I shift to the top side.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 40A - W: 22, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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