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138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4687

Page 7 of 11

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 am
by pancake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
no explanation necessary

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:24 am
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
While I am very leery of making "automatic" moves pursuant to ez4u's warning, I feel like continuing here is important for helping my bottom left group.

One thing I am not entirely happy with this game- I felt like I was doing well in the first few moves, however white gained tonnes of territory, and the game now has an equal/polarised feeling where white has tonnes and tonnes of solid territory while black has tonnes of moyo (and cash is theoretically safer than moyo promises).

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:19 pm
by emerus
both players:
Have you counted recently? If so, who do you think has the advantage?

How do you think the game will go in the next dozen moves or so?

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:59 pm
by Loons
My reckoning is/was: Black has a small territory on the left, a territory in the bottom right and a large moyo.

Conversely white seems to have about 52 points of territory and some prospects at gaining more points on bottom and right.

More fine reckoning:
If we say black's two territories are worth a bit over 15 points, Black's moyo must be worth 35-40 points more than what white gains in the rest of the game. This sounds like a lot, but really the top part of that moyo is essentially territory, so my impression is: black has significant potential, white is about 15 points up on the board.

Rather than being about winning or losing right now, I will simply ask from my moyo the number of points required to win: If this is too much, I will lose.

Edit: Right how it will go:

With sente, white will play a reduction that doubles as a large scale attack on K4 stones. Black will resist with his thickness and some weakness in white's bottom right group.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:29 am
by pancake
I didn't get a notification you played a move already, so there goes my promise of making a move every day ;).
I think I have 3 choices here. a,b and possibly tenuki. Emerus: I counted last time, but I forgot, so I will count again before deciding which move to play.
BLACK:
lower left: 8
lower right: 13
upper side: 28 solid, but it will probably be 10-15 points bigger at least. So I'll count 15 extra here.
total: 64
WHITE:
upper left: 21
upper right: 12
lower left: 13
right side: ~6
TOTAL: ~52 + komi, 58.5
So in my opinion I'm still behind. As I was from the start. I should try an active approach now to gain territory and reduce his.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I think move a is really vulgar, this is what would happen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Doesn't look good for me


Option b is the most standard reply:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
But I feel like this is helping him.

So if those two possibilities suck, where should I play then? I should keep in mind that if I tenuki, a would be sente for him. I feel like playing b, but my group on the right doesn't look very thick yet. Yet I think I have to take some risk here, since I'm behind. By the way, I don't know if b is the best point. The only way I can choose a good reducing move in this kind of situation is by intuition. Sometimes that ends in utter failure, sometimes it just happens to be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . b . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:58 pm
by Loons
Checking the forums right before going to bed may lead to dangerous insomnia.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . l . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . m . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . a . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . b . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I'm leaning quite heavily towards 'a' after which I expect b, and then I can go back to investigating plays on eg. the right.

My initial thought was 'l', followed by 'm', followed by 'a' and also some thinking about attachments.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:12 pm
by Loons
Sorry about my extreme tardiness.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 1 . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
At some point here I seem to have lost -_-. I guess that was just a little inevitable. I'll try to incite a fight; maybe I will be lucky.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:30 am
by pancake
Ah, he can still make something on the left. I think this game will be pretty hopeless for me from now on, have to win it on good endgame, if it comes to that. Anyway, if I don't jump out here, the game is over even sooner, so the move is obvious.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:29 am
by Chew Terr
If both players claim to have lost, can I take the win? =P

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:58 am
by Jedo
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:39 pm
by Magicwand
Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
since i am unbiased here...
as of now the game is very close...
if i had to choose.....i will take black.
but i wont feel comfortable taking either black or white.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:00 pm
by jts
Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
I thought the exact same thing.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:24 pm
by konfuzed
Jedo wrote:
Ha, this is the exact opposite of a Magicwand/Violence game
Hah, I'm so glad I'm not the only one thinking that. I think Malkovich games where the players have sharply conflicting interpretations of the board are the most fun to watch.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:38 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . X . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . W . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I'm not really planning to play 55 at L13, really. The scenario, as I see it:
1) I find something on the right that enables me to use my influence
or
2) I find a good place to resign
arghhh.sgf
(612 Bytes) Downloaded 897 times

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:44 pm
by yithril
His last move is clearly in the wrong direction, I don't see where he is going to make territory with this attack. With his initial attack I thought he was going to make a center moyo, but now I don't know. I think White should walk into Black's potential, and then later connect to his right group. If Black had attacked from the left, White would just connect on dame.
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