Page 8 of 12

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:20 am
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I guess this is more or less the only move. Depending on how white connects M7 I will continue with either N9 or N8. If white crosscuts, I will play M6.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:34 am
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 9 X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


To say my opponent has only one move following this is quite accurate. N8 is next. Then I cut.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:08 pm
by skydyr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I feel white should be able to handle the bottom group decently with the sequence white a, black b, white c, black d, which means that white only really needs to pay a lot of attention to the top group.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:32 pm
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 9 X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This time there is really no choice... If white crosscuts next, I'll jump to M10 (which is possible due to the liberty at O6). After that, :b55: cannot be immediately captured but white's lower group may somehow struggle out into the center (and might also aim for the K4 stone). In this case I have at least chances to get a big right side and some additional points around upper-middle center.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:24 am
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So I cut. Now the real fighting begins. There are many possible outcomes, probably millions of them, but I only need to find one that lets me win.

Let's just hope my opponent is looking for the same thing. :razz:

I expect a jump again, but this time I'm pretty sure it will only be a one point to M10. He may play the slower extension to M9, but that seems, well, slow. He could also play N9, but that doesn't help with liberties. He might atari first, but that would seem aji keshi. So I'm expecting M10, he might play one of these other moves, but anything else would really surprise me. (Just watch him play the two point jump again :roll: - my reputation as a clairvoyant is taking a serious hit with this game.)

If he does jump directly, I'm considering taking the bamboo-joint shape point at N10 after that. More reading will occur before I finalize that choice, but it seems likely.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:16 am
by Uberdude
Maybe it's crude, but I want to push here to ruin the eyeshape, then 63 asks white if he wants to take a liberty so next jump is weaker (m10 impossible), or bamboo which means black's outside is weaker. This looks dangerous for white, if he takes gote to settle the lower stones then black can probably gobble up the right side ones with a move around a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . a . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . 2 O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 5 O 3 O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:08 pm
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I was pondering whether to play M10 or N10. Eventually, I found a good counter argument against the more tough looking N10:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . 8 . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 6 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 7 5 4 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This is too easy for the white group. Therefore, M10 is more reasonable. Let's look at a few possible variations:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . X 6 . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 1 . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Here, black was too greedy and careless. Therefore, if white jumps out, I have to somehow protect my upper right side (On a second view, black can probably still manage the attachment :w64: by just extending to R11).

A variation, which I would like is the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 1 5 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 7 9 0 8 O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black can finally play (a) and it's hard to see what the lower white group is going to do.

White can also try to attach the M10 stone but thanks to the extra liberty on O6, there is no big danger:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 3 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 1 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 5 4 . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . a . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Black can easily escape and white is still somehow in trouble.

However, these variations are all too easy and white would probably play the other way round:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 1 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a 3 X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . 4 2 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . b X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This position is a bit annoying. If I push further at a, w can attach at b, threaten my single stone and eventually connect to lower left group or get alive elsewhere. If I protect at H4 instead, the following would happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 1 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . 0 . 8 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 6 3 X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . 4 2 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . 5 . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I definitely have to reply at :b69: in this variation, otherwise white plays M9 and my cutting stones are gone (and I could finally resign and read all of your nice comments... :D ). But if I reply, then the net at :w70: is quite big.

Therefore I finally abandoned M10 / N10 and try something completely different:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . 7 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 1 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 3 5 6 4 O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After w defends L8, black blocks at L6. :w64: threatens the cutting stones, but the kikashi :b65: prevents white to get an eye easily. Finally, :b67: is a good defense which also keeps the pressure on white.

If w allows the ponnuki I could prevent the attachment / connection around K4 one move earlier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 1 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . 4 2 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . 5 . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This position looks still quite ok for black. Of course there are even more possibilities. First, there is an ugly squeeze variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 :b69: at :w64:
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 0 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 7 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 1 4 5 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 3 . . 8 O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White squeezes black towards upper left direction. It seems that black can somehow survive this (also the :b41: stone may be quite helpful here) but I do not like it. Therefore, the alternative to :b65: in this variation is

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . a . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 1 4 6 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 3 7 5 . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This way, black captures M7/N7 but the other of white's split groups gets a strong wall with a stone captured in a ladder. The bonus for black is that the lower right side get quite big (>50 points unless white finds some very magic tricks). In the following, I could play a ladder-breaker around (a) and see what happens.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:20 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So he goes withe the crude looking atari. I'll be interested to read his thoughts on why this was better than a direct jump.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:33 am
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


See my previous comment ...

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:33 am
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, okay, I suppose he has this sente move as well. But the next move is M10. I'm sure of it. :scratch:

Okay, I'm like 82.7% sure at this point.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:52 pm
by schawipp
Sorry for my delay, this week was quite busy again and work did hardly let any room for Go left...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, in my last comment, I didn't consider the obvious move :w64: - The diagnosis for that will probably be 'wishful thinking' :oops:

In this position I would pretty much play N10, however it does not work well:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 7 8 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X 9 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This way white would either kill the L6 stones or (when I run away with L6) connect to the bottom and make quite some territory there.

Thus, the ugly squeeze variation from my last post comes back to life, but I think (hope...) black can handle it.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:21 pm
by Shaddy
Am I the only person who thinks White's been completely screwed since he played M7?

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:10 am
by Uberdude
Shaddy wrote:Am I the only person who thinks White's been completely screwed since he played M7?


I thought he was fairly screwed before then ;-) (Since the black cut)

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:30 am
by schawipp
I make another post because - maybe - my last move after a one-weak break was not noticed. Anyway, all white has to do now to make me resign is capturing my cutting stones... ;-)

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:47 pm
by moyoaji
I am sorry for this delay. I've been very busy with college these past few weeks. All of my go pursuits have been struggling - you can check out some blunders I made in the last OGS games I resigned. Hopefully I don't blunder here on account of my classes. :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm60
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . 2 . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 6 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 7 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This move is forcing in the hopes of helping my bottom group. I expect black to connect solidly or descend with a nobi. After that, I plan to sacrifice my Q8 stones.

Why sacrifice them? Trying to manage 3 groups at once would not be easy and I fear that black now only has 1 group to worry about. I'm beginning to think my moves were too aggressive within black's area of influence. But at the start of all this I said I wanted to do things I hadn't done before. I'm getting what I asked for.

I don't need all 3 of these groups to live. I want to pressure black's cutting stones to get a wall toward the left. I hope for this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . C . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . 7 C . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . 5 6 . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . X 3 4 O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X X X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . X 5 O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I believe 7 will be sente because of the possibility of a net at O11. If black pushes from behind, I'll extend once more. If he surrounds my stones in some fashion, I will take sente to play a move around 'a'.

Yes, I am giving up a lot. Before a few months ago, I would never have played this way. Surrendering 7th line territory would be unthinkable for me. But I realize that trying to hold on to everything is crazy and this does offer me the chance to profit greatly in the center.

I'm glad I needed to write out this explanation. It gave me time to think this move over. I was originally going to play at the star point and then here, but I realized that I don't need the star point move first. This move gives me shape by itself and, if black ignores, I'll get a great cut by taking the star point and putting his 3-4 stone in atari.