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Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:38 am
by dfan
One thing that often happens for "book learners" like you and me is that we have learned how to respond well to good moves, but not how to respond well to bad moves. :) Bad moves have the disadvantage (for your opponent) of being bad, but they have the advantage of throwing you off because they're not in that easy-look-up pattern dictionary you've accumulated in your head.

In general when this happens I need to slow down and really engage the conscious part of my brain that performs reading and does careful whole-board evaluation. The game has turned away from the nice trails through the forest and you're now fighting your way through the bushes, which requires slightly different skills. The good news is that playing these sorts of games lets you accumulate some of the "punish bad play" patterns you've been lacking.

I also cannot emphasize enough Bill Spight's point that a lot of bad moves are self-punishing. Whenever your opponent makes a play that seems wrong, ask yourself whether it is wrong because it has some refutation, or whether it's wrong just because it's small (say). Not all errors have to be pounced on.

Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:00 am
by Ian Butler
Okay. A new day, a new chance. After a good night's sleep, I realize I had a real off-day yesterday and I'm feeling already much better today, even about the game I played. It's still an ugly game to my eye, but I see now how valuable it can be for me to learn from. Games like that especially should be interesting to me to learn how to deal with. I'll never get to be a strong(er) player if I can't handle all kinds of situations at least moderately well.

So, I did some analysis on the game. Not move by move, but the beginning and some key points. The review is added at the bottom of my post.
Main points were (I believe)

- Being too intimidated and not exploiting my opponent's weaknesses. (Being "under attack")
- Not seeing that corner. But that is hard to see. Very hard, I think. (at least for me)
- Playing my opponent's game, and not my own. (when I did play my own game somewhere halfway the game, I made up a lot of ground)
You can also learn from Bruce Wilcox's Contact Fights. I think it's still available online. I have only heard good things about it.
I've heard this tip before. I'm going to purchase it, now. I think it'll really help my game develop.
For inspiration you might enjoy my pages about Spightonians.
Awesome! I'm reading these later today!
Like you I (and many others) somehow find it less stressful to play a bot than a human. I think this shows we have a strong ego and we do "play the opponent" instead of "playing the board". Like I said, we can use this to our advantage, when aware of it.

There are a couple of experiments we can try here:

1. Cold Turkey - after doing the review, challenge that awful player for a rematch. You will have studied his strengths and weaknesses and can prepare a strategy to beat him.
2. Awareness training - in your next game, if the opponent does something that throws you off, think of this conversation. "Aha! I'm thrown off here". Any psychological advance starts with recognizing the situation (and step 2: welcoming it). Just continue to be aware and acknowledge the emotion.
3. Denial - in your next game, pretend the opponent is a bot, who has no emotions, no trickery, no plan other than playing the best moves it calculates. This can be a fun experiment, but I don't recommend it as a gaming strategy, because it disregards your temperament, which seems to be emotionally engaged.
I don't think it necessarily translate to a matter of ego (though for sure there's some part of it at play), rather some things that are different between a bot and a player:
- you can play a bit 10 times in a row, he won't care, you're not wasting his time.
- Leela is much stronger than me and I like to play strong players who give me hell. It helps me to know that if I can ever defend/attack Leela, I can probably do it rather well.

But, like you said, ego might and probably is still a part of it. Even though I've consistently worked on "killing" that ego the past few years, it's still part of me and it's good to be aware of it, so I can work on it.

I think the awareness training is my kind of method. Now that the emotions have gone, I see the game in a different light already. If I can keep my emotions under control when it happens again, I'll have no problems (not saying I'll win, but I mean I won't go crazy).
The other two methods might be good, but suit me less. First one perhaps. The third one is not so interesting. Go is about people and I should always recognize that. And rather than see an opponent that annoys me, I should see him as one who challenges me out my comfort zone and stimulates me to come up with moves I ordinarily wouldn't play.
Let me be a bit severe here: if you really know the foundation for the "correct" moves, you can punish the bad moves. Otherwise you're probably going through the motions of good play, without knowing why it is good.
I think it's more like dfan says.
Also, if his "bad moves" were not contact moves, I'd probably deal with them a lot better. The fact that they are contact/fighting moves, probably has more relevance than anything.
But as far as contact moves go, you are right, I should know the reason why a particular move is played.
One thing that often happens for "book learners" like you and me is that we have learned how to respond well to good moves, but not how to respond well to bad moves. :) Bad moves have the disadvantage (for your opponent) of being bad, but they have the advantage of throwing you off because they're not in that easy-look-up pattern dictionary you've accumulated in your head.

In general when this happens I need to slow down and really engage the conscious part of my brain that performs reading and does careful whole-board evaluation. The game has turned away from the nice trails through the forest and you're now fighting your way through the bushes, which requires slightly different skills. The good news is that playing these sorts of games lets you accumulate some of the "punish bad play" patterns you've been lacking.

I also cannot emphasize enough Bill Spight's point that a lot of bad moves are self-punishing. Whenever your opponent makes a play that seems wrong, ask yourself whether it is wrong because it has some refutation, or whether it's wrong just because it's small (say). Not all errors have to be pounced on.
That's actually great advice. It does feel like fighting through the bushes. Very uncomfortable for me, but perhaps these are the games I need to playing more than anything else, in that case.


Thanks everyone for your advice!


Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:28 am
by Ian Butler
Because of limited time today and tomorrow (broken boiler + family business) I've just played a small Go variant against Leela, which I read about yesterday. Give myself 17 handicap stones and try to kill any white stone that comes on the board.
Leela made it difficult by going for a 3-3 invasion immediately. I had to be creative to try to kill it. In the end, I think I played well and came close, but Leela outsmarted me (well, she can calculate 100 000 games, I can only read out several moves :cool: )
But I think it was a good training and I made some nice moves.

If only I would not be lazy and read like this every game I play :lol:

(I stopped there because I have no more time and I "failed" in the game anyway.

Especially moves 34 - 48 were great, always first option by Leela, too!


Re: The Story of a Loser - 3-3 Invasion Fight!

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:23 am
by Knotwilg
Very good self review. Now my final words on this game and your comments:

- Around 26 you spot the cut. Cut & Connect is the first principle in Go. Very important.
- At 48 you realize it is better to surround first and destroy eyes later. This is another important principle.
- At 70 you realize the importance of the ko and that a non-local threat won't matter
- Yet all is not lost: with 72 you play a fantastic attacking move
- However, at 80 you miss a killing opportunity, playing the first line descent. You play this move often and early, while it is rarely a good move.

If you can

- remember and apply the principles of cut & connect and surround & escape
- keep playing those great attacking moves like 72
- and unlearn the first line descent (to relearn later where it may be good)

then your rank will skyrocket

Re: The Story of a Loser - 3-3 Invasion Fight!

Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:42 am
by Bill Spight
Here are some variations. :)


Re: The Story of a Loser - 3-3 Invasion Fight!

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:21 am
by Ian Butler
Knotwilg wrote:Very good self review. Now my final words on this game and your comments:

- Around 26 you spot the cut. Cut & Connect is the first principle in Go. Very important.
- At 48 you realize it is better to surround first and destroy eyes later. This is another important principle.
- At 70 you realize the importance of the ko and that a non-local threat won't matter
- Yet all is not lost: with 72 you play a fantastic attacking move
- However, at 80 you miss a killing opportunity, playing the first line descent. You play this move often and early, while it is rarely a good move.

If you can

- remember and apply the principles of cut & connect and surround & escape
- keep playing those great attacking moves like 72
- and unlearn the first line descent (to relearn later where it may be good)

then your rank will skyrocket
Great advice! Thanks a lot.
I'll definitely try to keep these comments in mind.
I played a serious game earlier today and tried to put them into practice, especially unlearn the 1st line descent. I did fairly well, I have self-reviewed the game move by move here!

It was also against a player to which I had already lost twice, but I went into the game with a calm head and it was a very fun game!

@Bill:
Wow, those variations are a bit outside my strength. But I'm getting closer, I think I did alright up until the point that Leela decided to kill me first :lol:

Re: The Story of a Loser - 3-3 Invasion Fight!

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:13 am
by Bill Spight
Ian Butler wrote:@Bill:
Wow, those variations are a bit outside my strength.
Please note the throw-in to reduce the size of the eye and to eliminate a potential eye point.

Also, the 2x3 eye shape in the corner is very often vulnerable.

Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:32 pm
by mitsun
Ian Butler wrote:I've just played a small Go variant against Leela, which I read about yesterday. Give myself 17 handicap stones and try to kill any white stone that comes on the board.
Leela made it difficult by going for a 3-3 invasion immediately.
If Leela knew the rules of your game, she could have won at move 9 (b17) or move 16 (b19). She was trying to win a different game :)
Have you tried playing regular Go on a 9x9 board? That is great practice for fighting and reading, without much of an opening game.

Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:50 pm
by Ian Butler
mitsun wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:I've just played a small Go variant against Leela, which I read about yesterday. Give myself 17 handicap stones and try to kill any white stone that comes on the board.
Leela made it difficult by going for a 3-3 invasion immediately.
If Leela knew the rules of your game, she could have won at move 9 (b17) or move 16 (b19). She was trying to win a different game :)
Have you tried playing regular Go on a 9x9 board? That is great practice for fighting and reading, without much of an opening game.
Haha I know, that's what makes the game so funny, my opponent doesn't understand what I'm doing :lol:

Yeah I try to play at least 10 9x9 games a week against Igowin. Maybe it's not enough, though. I'm really not good at 9x9 and it's my least favorite dimension on a Go board.

Anyway, playing Igowin, I'm constantly changing between him playing black and me playing black. Igowin ranks me at around 8 kyu, but I don't think that has any meaning towards ranking on OGS, for example.

@Bill. Interesting fact about that corner space. Corners are weird creatures in Go. You never know if one is safe or not (well, you know, but I don't) :oops: :bow: :mrgreen:

Re: The Story of a Loser - 3-3 Invasion Fight!

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:27 am
by Ian Butler
Wow. I just met Gerald Westhoff for a sunny afternoon Go playing and I really learned a lot. We played a game, where I got to look into his head for a bit (complex level of thinking in his Go game!) and I also showed him my two last Go games and we reviewed them a bit.
What a great day. Sunny and warm, three hours of Go in good company. What more do you want?

Re: The Story of a Loser - How Not To Fall Into a Trap?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:35 am
by Bill Spight
Ian Butler wrote:@Bill. Interesting fact about that corner space. Corners are weird creatures in Go. You never know if one is safe or not (well, you know, but I don't) :oops: :bow: :mrgreen:
See http://www.h-eba.com/heba/JITEN/jiten1-1.html :)

Re: The Story of a Loser - What more do you want?

Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:54 pm
by Knotwilg
Hey Ian

One interesting way of improving is trying to find mistakes in games by much higher ranked players. Other than the technical virtues it gives a boost in your self esteem: hey, I can find mistakes in dan player games!

Here's a game I played today, against a 1d bot, winning by 57,6 points. The bot made some mistakes and so did I.

No obligation here, but if you'd care to spot a few oddities in there, be my guest.


Re: The Story of a Loser - What more do you want?

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:35 am
by Ian Butler
Cool, that's a nice exercise.
Sorry in advance if I spot things that aren't really things :lol:


Okay, a few observations from me:

:w56: makes black stronger. C4 was another possibility?
:b71: doesn't feel right. In fact that entire sequence of black running makes white way too strong and practically gives white the victory. Maybe that kick wasn't so bad after all :)
Black 155 connect after the peep?

I'd need to look at every move a lot closer to see any real mistakes, because this is above my level quite a bit :)
I have no time for that now, but I might come back to it later.
At first glance, I'd say black's biggest mistake was letting white just take the entire bottom. It gave white that bottom because it had a weak group it was running out and you profited quite a bit.

Re: The Story of a Loser - What more do you want?

Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:52 am
by Knotwilg
Ian Butler wrote:Cool, that's a nice exercise.

I'd need to look at every move a lot closer to see any real mistakes, because this is above my level quite a bit :)
I have no time for that now, but I might come back to it later.
Never mind, we shouldn't spend too much time on each of these reviews, it's the experience that matters.

You said:

:w56: makes black stronger. C4 was another possibility? -- Well spotted! It certainly was on my radar. I wanted to play as actively as possible though.

:b71: doesn't feel right. In fact that entire sequence of black running makes white way too strong and practically gives white the victory. Maybe that kick wasn't so bad after all :) -- Yeah, Black didn't really try to enter that area, which was a strategic mistake.

For me, the biggest mistakes on either side:

White 88: it didn't have big consequences but I didn't read here at all. Luckly I could retract at 90 but making this kind of exchange is very bad.

Black 121: it took me a while to see where Black made the last mistake, but I think it was here. If he captures that 2nd line stone instead, all the bad aji is gone and I can no longer descend at the top in sente, to kill his group. But this is quite a tough move to discuss.

See you!

Re: The Story of a Loser - What more do you want?

Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:15 am
by Ian Butler
Yes, black 121 at B17 seems to be stronger than what was actually played! Black now survives in the corner (well, at least in my variations)


Anyway, yesterday was another great day. I played five consecutive games against my brother (who's a few ranks weaker than me, but still manages to put up a good fight often). Just a month ago, I always played a bit nervously against him, afraid to lose.
I've gotten rid of that fear now, though, and play very relaxed. I actually took these games as a time to experiment and have fun more.
I used the 3-3 double opening for the first time.
I made some experimental moves.

It was a lot of fun. And we both learned.