Life In 19x19

RobertJasiek wrote:IP address or email account use are only indicators but not evidence in themselves, even if the provider confirms registered data. Either might be hacked.

Also, there's no evidence that Kim Eunji exist.

RobertJasiek wrote:IP address or email account use are only indicators but not evidence in themselves, even if the provider confirms registered data. Either might be hacked.

Wrong. They are evidence. They are not incontrovertible proof. Little evidence is. Maybe you mistranslated to German in your head.

Btw, over on Facebook I asked about what crime the cheater in the pro test who got sentenced to jail for 1 year was convicted of. Kim Yoonyoung said it was 업무방해죄 aka obstruction of business.

http://koreanlii.or.kr/w/index.php/Obst ... f_business

Kim Yoonyoung said it was 업무방해죄 aka obstruction of business.

I think it is more fully obstruction of business by fraudulent means, which I assume includes cheating. And since fraud is in the mix, ordinary amateur cheating as on KGS, say, would be exempt.

Reading that page I linked, it seems if I entered my name as "NULL" (thanks Mum and Dad!) into the Tygem registration page and their bad coding meant I crashed the server, then I might be guilty of a crime. Or even just entering my name as John instead of Andrew!

SoDesuNe wrote:
But yeah, for your feelings to remain intact it might be best to exclude cheaters from the pro organisation. Then again your feelings should not be the basis to another person's sentence. That's called bias.

Everyone here is expressing their feelings on the topic. That’s why we’re having a discussion. Your opinion to allow cheaters who very likely lied in an “apology letter” is also biased.

What I believe to be objective is that, all other things being equal, an organization with no tolerance for cheaters, having no known cheaters (or liars) as members is more honorable than one that allows cheaters and liars to remain members.

As a result, I have less respect for the organization, now. And others will, too.

Like you said, our feelings here are irrelevant. We don’t make the decisions, and the damage has already been done. The only thing that would fix things would be for Kim Eunji to resign, herself. But given her actions so far, that’s probably not going to happen.

I’ll admit: now we live in a world with a less respectable pro organization. And I just have to get over it.

Uberdude wrote:Reading that page I linked, it seems if I entered my name as "NULL" (thanks Mum and Dad!) into the Tygem registration page and their bad coding meant I crashed the server, then I might be guilty of a crime. Or even just entering my name as John instead of Andrew!

Yeah, their technology is crap, and the whole technical aspect of managing tournaments could be restructured to make things a lot better. I don’t believe that’s the core issue here (pretty sure Eunji can find ways to cheat whatever system they have), but I think this is an opportunity to fix this aspect of tournaments.

Side note: It’s speculation, I know, but Kim Eunji breezed through Yunguseng classes, but kinda got stuck at becoming a pro for awhile. Given recent events, it doesn’t seem inconsistent to me that she’s been cheating regularly, but had a hard time cheating to actually become pro. I have no proof of this, and the thought is totally biased and speculative. But I can’t avoid having that thought now, given her cheating history... Really lousy situation

Kirby wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:
But yeah, for your feelings to remain intact it might be best to exclude cheaters from the pro organisation. Then again your feelings should not be the basis to another person's sentence. That's called bias.

Everyone here is expressing their feelings on the topic. That’s why we’re having a discussion. Your opinion to allow cheaters who very likely lied in an “apology letter” is also biased.

I would split hairs by saying everyone here is expressing opinions and some are more influenced by emotions but, yes, we are all equally discussing here. Though my initial point was calling it biased when one is demanding a concrete verdict due one's feeling about the matter. I'm not demanding a concrete verdict. I'm for consequences as much as you are but the choice between nothing and life-time-ban has quite some nuances inbetween. Except for "nothing" they all speak towards no tolerance for cheaters because cheating will be punished. And here comes the intricate part: The actual sentence has to be tailored to the individual and its specific case. There is no one fits all approach.

I can even imagine cases to yell expelliarmus, too. I.e. if someone is planning to cheat (premeditated!) because they are betting on their own games to make extra cash. Though I'm not saying life-time-ban is the only choice here, since we don't know their motive yet. Life is complex.

And again for me this is not about Kim Eunji, cheating in go just had its first (known) pro case. I'm sure there will be others. You can't "fix" that unless you fix humans.

"Restoring honour" is - as the wording suggests - not meant to prepare for the future.

SoDesuNe wrote: And again for me this is not about Kim Eunji, cheating in go just had its first (known) pro case. I'm sure there will be others.

Actually Hong Seongji 9p used AI in casual online games (but on an account known to be him, on Fox perhaps), iirc suspiciouns were raised because he beat Ke Jie and other super top pros too many times in a row. He got off with a warning, and apparently the KBA made a rule that once a cheating suspicion is raised the player is suspended until the verdict. That wasn't applied in this Kim Eunji case, which is I think why various pros spoke out about the KBA's lack of action/consistency (not just the amateur in pro exam case).

Uberdude wrote:Reading that page I linked, it seems if I entered my name as "NULL" (thanks Mum and Dad!) into the Tygem registration page and their bad coding meant I crashed the server, then I might be guilty of a crime. Or even just entering my name as John instead of Andrew!

https://xkcd.com/327/

Indeed...

Take care

SoDesuNe wrote:
I would split hairs by saying everyone here is expressing opinions and some are more influenced by emotions but, yes, we are all equally discussing here.

I don't think it's fair to blame me for being "influenced by emotions", if that's your implication, just because I have a different opinion than you. While it's true that I have passion for this topic, I feel that my opinion is based on evidence that I've researched, read, and heard from other people. Compared to folks who haven't read the various online Korean resources, I've probably in fact researched this topic more than the average guy in this discussion.

You may find my opinion to be "influenced by emotions", but I think the distinction is largely because my opinion is different than yours - not because I'm being less objective than you are.

SoDesuNe wrote: Though my initial point was calling it biased when one is demanding a concrete verdict due one's feeling about the matter. I'm not demanding a concrete verdict. I'm for consequences as much as you are but the choice between nothing and life-time-ban has quite some nuances inbetween. Except for "nothing" they all speak towards no tolerance for cheaters because cheating will be punished. And here comes the intricate part: The actual sentence has to be tailored to the individual and its specific case. There is no one fits all approach.

I agree with you - there are nuances here. In some cases it might be appropriate to ban someone for a year or something. But I believe the appropriate choice of action in this particular case is to ban Eunji from being a pro.

The bottom line is that we both have visions for how we believe a pro association should act, and how it should be defined. My vision is different than yours. For example, you also seem to value following the example of chess organizations. That's fine, and I'm okay to have a different opinion than you.

But I take offense to the idea that this makes my view more emotional or less nuanced than your view, simply because it's different.

Kirby, did you consider the possibility than you expressed far more emotions and feelings than anyone else in this thread?

Kirby wrote: In some cases it might be appropriate to ban someone for a year or something.

I'm not as passionate as you are so I may have missed some info. Based on the "facts" that
- she's 13
- she confessed to cheating a single time
- there is no evidence of premeditation
If you think that case deserves a definite ban, in which case would you consider a 1 year ban correct?

explo wrote:Kirby, did you consider the possibility than you expressed far more emotions and feelings than anyone else in this thread?

What with words? I don’t know how else to communicate on a forum.

Anyway, it seems that whatever I say here is gonna be construed as “biased” or “emotional”, so I’m done.

Kirby, I don't see any words in your posts that express emotions, and you are well-informed about the Korean go scene, which is very valuable. Your opinions are a bit extreme compared to other opinions expressed here, this doesn't make your opinion emotional or worthless.

However I found your comparison with In-Seong's treatment of cheating a bit strange. You only see the impact on the victims of cheating, and ignore completely the impact on the cheater.

Kirby wrote:

explo wrote:Kirby, did you consider the possibility than you expressed far more emotions and feelings than anyone else in this thread?

What with words? I don’t know how else to communicate on a forum.

Anyway, it seems that whatever I say here is gonna be construed as “biased” or “emotional”, so I’m done.

You ignore the silent majority so I'll speak up like Uberdude did. I believe Robert would call this "meta discussion".

I observe a lot of emotions, perceived emotions and meta discussion these days. The other day someone wished I'd got Covid and no treatment, to suffer in hell, for what was a mere disagreement about the measures in our country.

Anyway, your points on this topic seem valid, if a little extreme. I concur with Uberdude there - but I'm not knowledgeable, neither on legal systems or the Korean go scene.