Page 8 of 8

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:18 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm97 Moves Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X B X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O . O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is sente, but not so clear cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X 6 . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . 3 . X X . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O 4 . 5 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O 1 O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . 2 . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:07 pm
by Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm98 Moves Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O 1 O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:35 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm99 Move 99 Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . B . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:46 pm
by Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm100 Move 100 Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . 1 . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Strategy and Thoughts
Uh... either black has decided to sacrifice this group or he thinks he can live even if I get another move in the area, which just isn't true. I think. This is a pretty big kill, so I won't hesitate at all to take it. If black actually is alive, and ended up living in sente essentially, I'll be in too much trouble and I'll probably be forced to resign.

If I kill black, the whole central region becomes basically dame, so to win I'll need to eek out more points in the few places remaining.


Tactics and Variations
Anyway, below is one possible variation. 'a' and 'b' are miai for black's death.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . 1 2 X X . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . 3 C O 4 . b . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 1:05 pm
by Perception
Numsgil wrote:Tactics and Variations
Anyway, below is one possible variation. 'a' and 'b' are miai for black's death.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . 1 2 X X . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . 3 C O 4 . b . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a and b are actually miai for black to live.

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:05 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Move 101 Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O B . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:06 pm
by Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm102 Move 102 Prisoners: B + 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X O X . 1 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Tactics and Variations
There was a few minutes of "oh crap" when I stared at the position. I can't capture like below. Black wins.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X 5 6 O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O 3 X X 7 8 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . 1 C O X . 2 . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Fortunately, I don't have to defend against the single stone capture, because it just forms a false eye.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X 5 6 O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 3 O 2 X X 7 8 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X C X . 1 9 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:18 pm
by Aphelion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Move 103 Prisoners: B + 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 2 O 1 X X 3 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X . X . O . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:57 pm
by Perception
Numsgil wrote:Fortunately, I don't have to defend against the single stone capture, because it just forms a false eye.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X 5 6 O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 3 O 2 X X 7 8 . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X C X . 1 9 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | X . . . X X X . . . . . O O . X O X . |
$$ | O O . O O O X . X , . . . . O O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . X . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . O , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O O X X O 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X X . X 5 7 O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O 3 O 2 X X 6 a . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O . . X C X . 1 8 . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O X X X X b . O X . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . O O O O O . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | X O O . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |[/go]

a and b are miai after this so white can't make the eye false. I think that the move that Aphelion came up with works though as well.

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:26 am
by Numsgil
I resign. Well played.

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:44 am
by Numsgil
Redundant wrote:
White should not have played this variation of the 3-3. He should have taken sente somehow (there's a bunch of ways to do this).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 Move 32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O X . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here, yeah? I sort of know how to take sente from a 3-3 invasion (I think I could piece the sequence together in a proper game if I had to), and I even toyed with the idea, but this seems like about an ideal situation as you're ever likely to get to use this joseki. And there's nothing urgent on the board that would demand sente.

So I don't see why you think I should have taken sente. Seems like a stylistic choice here.

Re: 82. Aphelion[5k] vs Numsgil[5k]

Posted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:22 am
by Aphelion
Thanks for the game. In response to Redundant's suggestion, I agree wholeheartedly, one of my primary fears at that stage of the game was losing sente. I was really worried that you would take sente somehow after that because P12 meant the difference between me having a weak stone too near your thick group vs a very efficient moyo set up. However, judging from the way you play, I figured you'd let me get away with sente after a 3-3 :).