115 - robinz v. 1986

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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

Mnemonic,
Mnemonic wrote:Can't say I agree with black’s last move.
It depends, partly, on the score. If B is ahead by taking 3-3 in sente, it can be a good choice. What's your count?
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Mnemonic »

@EdLee
I guess you’re right. My count says black is leading by roughly 35 points after the corner invasion but I didn't count the resulting moyo of white. I feel that this moyo is white’s last chance. If white gets the corner and black takes the side black has probably won. (Even if his side is smaller than whites corner because whites influence has gone to waste)
With this sequence I feel white still has a small chance.
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Not much choice here. Note that if white subsequently double hanes (which is clearly better for white than normal because of the 7-3 stone), I think I can get something out of this variation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 prisoner count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . 3 2 5 . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


After the fate of this invasion becomes clear, I think we'll then be basically in the endgame :sad: (One of the things I dislike about go is how much of the game seems to be endgame, and I gather this becomes more and more true as one gets stronger.) I'll do a count then, but my preliminary counts seem to indicate that I'll be about 10-15 points behind in definite territory, so I think I'm going to have to play pretty aggressively.


@Mnemonic: sorry we were moving too fast for you to start with. I was a bit surprised at how quickly things were going myself! Hope you're not wincing too much at my terrible moves :lol:
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Post by EdLee »

Mnemonic,
In your second variation ( :w1: changed to a tiger's mouth)...
suppose :w3: tenuki -- instead of W(a) -- then B(a) seems sente;
and did you consider the B(b-c-d) push-and-cut (and the resulting count)?
Also, how do you feel about W's two walls facing each other,
and the effect of the :bs: thickness on the (e) areas?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w3: tenuki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O # # . # # # . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . # O # . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . # . # . . . . . c b X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . d O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . e . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X a . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Mnemonic »

@EdLee
In your second variation ( :w1: changed to a tiger's mouth)...
suppose :w3: tenuki -- instead of W(a) -- then B(a) seems sente;

That's why I played the solid connection in my variation :D But apparently white is not as thick as I thought (didn't think about your b-c-d variation, that just seems evil) And black is very strong up above (although I think e is a bit deep if you just play it without fist either a or b-c-d)
White really does seem on his last leg :sad: I wonder what robinz is counting?

So my question to you: If you see you win the game by invading at the 33 is it the right option because it is safer/less complicated than other moves like my 5-2? Or is blacks move just “good enough” in this game but not optimal (not saying my move is).
While I was teaching the game to a friend of mine, my mother from the other room:
"Cutting? Killing? Poking out eyes? What the hell are you playing?"
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm glad he went here now i don't gotta worry about the knights move and i dont gotta worry about him crawling up the side heading to his other group

*sigh of relief*

as far as this move it is also the only move
standing still means going backwards
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm77 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


As expected. I really hope I manage not to die here. *looks around nervously, and makes note to look up the 3-3 invasion in this situation after the game* :study:
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm78 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is a strong move I was going to connect but that's to timid 
standing still means going backwards
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm79 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O 1 . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So it is the double hane. I really hope this works... (my reading suggests that it does, but there are a lot of variations here, so the probability of me having missed something is probably quite close to 1 :o)
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Banaan »

for observers:
Why the double hane? if I was white, i'd just extend. the corner doesnt get that much larger, and there's no cutting stone. The cutting stone looks awesome for b
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm80 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I expected this move let the fighting begin 
My strategy is to play strong he has weak groups to push around :)
standing still means going backwards
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by Aphelion »

For 1986 after game:
All of Black's groups are strong; there is nothing to push around.
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Here we go then. I think I get quite a good result here if black fights too much and tries too hard to kill the corner - but if he just plays solidly and defends on the outside I will have to come back and live in gote. (Which, at this fairly late stage of the game, I'm prepared to take.) But let's see :)
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Post by EdLee »

Mnemonic,
Mnemonic wrote:I think e is a bit deep
(e) was not a point; it was the general area, thus "(e) areas".
Mnemonic wrote:If you see you win the game by invading at the 33
Yes, it'd be a very good candidate, unless I can find something else vastly superior to "winning". :mrgreen:
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Re: 115 - robinz v. 1986

Post by 1986 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82 Prisoner Count B - 0 W - 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . X X . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , O . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X O X O . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . X O X . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Interesting move the on space jump looks good alot better than a hane
standing still means going backwards
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