124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

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Chew Terr
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . 6 . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . a . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . f . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X c . X O . . |
$$ | . . b . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I wanted all of these points. 'b' is iffy because it hurts my bottom group a bit, but the rest look pretty good. 'c' is slightly less big, now that there's at least some black stones above for these to run to if I steal their base. Essentially though, it seemed TOO good for black to let it turn the curner here in the middle, so I jumped ahead to prevent it. I'll have to think about the biggest next move again in a bit, but I want this now. I like the looks of 'f' actually, not for any threatened followup, but for the safe reduction.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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emeraldemon
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Took 17:03 to decide
value: 51.5%
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 3 . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 5 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . 6 9 . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 1 8 0 . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Still seems to greatly overestimate the aji of its 2 stones in the upper right. For the people who were curious, I ran again w/ a significantly higher search count:
revised.png
revised.png (629.88 KiB) Viewed 10840 times
It came up with this sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . 6 5 X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 3 . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . . . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
seems much worse...
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Chew Terr
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . 8 . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 0 X 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Yeah, I've been leaving this group hanging for a bit too long. Really wanted to slide into the corner more for eyespace instead, but didn't like how much white could threaten to sever connections, while undercutting my base.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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emeraldemon
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Fuego doesn't like your suggestions...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 51.0%
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 0 . . . 7 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O 4 . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 X 2 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I like the undercutting that fuego is trying, but with the corner open I don't think black can really do much here. All white has to do is slide (which is pretty big). Overall I still prefer white here, but the game's not over yet (I can't help but root for Fuego).
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Chew Terr
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 0 X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The cut doesn't work currently, though I'll probably have to fix it in gote soon... This is a lot worse locally than expected. =/
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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Numsgil
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Numsgil »

emeraldemon wrote:
(I can't help but root for Fuego).
I can't help think of John Henry the Steel Driving Man. I'll root for Chew, but it'll be quite sad when, though victorious, the exertion kills him.
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emeraldemon
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 51.9%
This is the most confident Fuego has ever been about the game, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . O . . X 3 7 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O 9 O . . X O X 6 O . . |
$$ | . . 8 . 0 . . O X X 1 . 5 2 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Is there anything in particular people are interested in besides the value & the main line?
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Chew Terr
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 2 . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Don't want to get cut here. Next, I'll either slide towards the corner or go up and out.
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].
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emeraldemon
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X 3 . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
value: 51.5%
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X 1 . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 4 . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What's the deal with :w56: and :w58: ? I know I said Fuego evaluates both sides the same way, but somehow white seems to take all the pointless gote moves in this sequence...
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Loons »

Wait, I'm confused about how Fuego thinks, again.

So the numbers on the board are the quantity of MC game-play-outs it started there, and every victorious play-out adds weight to that play-out's starting move, and high placing moves (2nd, 3rd place etc) are tried earlier in later play-outs (as they become established)?

Could you give us some samples of the finished MC play-outs Fuego reaches ? I am curious how crazy they look. (Sorry if I just overlooked them earlier). Would it be useful to post a white's-move-values board for the first move after Fuego's chosen move, or can we just infer that from Fuego's predicted sequences?
PS: The board doesn't look *so* terrible for black, though I guess I keep imagining in some kind of life on top. Where would other people play their next few moves as black, after Chew slides for life? (To contrast Fuego's tenuki sequences).
PPS: Sorry if I come across as confused, I am.
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

I will try to explain in a bit more detail how Fuego works. There are two parts: the tree search and the playouts.

The tree starts completely empty (just the root node). If the same move is ever tried 3 times in a position in playouts, that node is added to the tree, so the tree of variations grows over time (that number 3 is a parameter than can be tweaked). Periodically Fuego goes through and prunes nodes in the tree with few visits, so the tree is constantly being reshaped over time.

Inside the tree, moves are chosen with basically a minimax policy: black chooses the move with the highest win %, then white chooses the response with the best win % for white, and so on down the tree. When the end of the tree is reached, the pseudo-random playout begins, and Fuego plays until a win or a loss. At that point, the win % for every move in that playout is adjusted.

The thing I think you're talking about is something I explained a bit of before, called RAVE. In the tree, instead of just looking at a win% for a move at a particular position, Fuego also considers the win% for other times that move was played, elsewhere in the tree. The idea is that good moves tend to be good moves even when played at different times, so Fuego can use that information to evaluate moves more quickly (RAVE stands for Rapid Action Value Estimation).

Of course, we all now order really does matter sometimes, so RAVE is actually on a kind of clock, where as the search goes on, less and less weight is given to the move's plays at other times, until eventually only the plays from that exact node are counted.

Now the interesting part: what playouts look like! This sgf has 4 sample playouts from the last move (they take a few moves to diverge):



Notice they play until everything is single-point eyes. Also remember it's area scoring, not territory scoring. As explained earlier in the thread, these aren't really "random", rather they're somewhat random with some simple heuristics (never fill your own eyes, capture stones, extend from atari, etc). You can judge from the sgf about how they look.
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As painful as this is, let's see about getting some eyespace.
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 51.2%
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 0 . . 9 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 7 O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X X 4 . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This one took Fuego a bit longer than usual, there some other points it was considering:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . d . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . c . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a: 66%
b: 11%
c: 8%
d: 4%

Considering many of the moves have been 85-95% on a particular move, there were a lot of choices in Fuego's mind for this one. I like the forcing moves here, if black can keep white weak on the bottom that middle wall may be worth something after all. That said, white may just have enough space to live outright, so maybe it doesn't matter.

I also agree that b in the diagram above is a big point, I think Chew feels that way also, it'll be really interesting to see who gets there first.
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . X X . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . O . O . . X . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . O . O . O . . X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . O X X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Protects my connection in sente against a threat to live. I'll still have to play to escape or possibly try to make eyes, regardless, so this changes little... There's a REALLY intimidating amount of black strength where I've got to run, though... I need to decide if F1 will live.
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Re: 124. Chew (3k) vs Fuego (Bot)

Post by Loons »

I'm not personally under the impression that Chew has the option of living locally after C3. Against eg. the placement F1, you could (spoiler)
reduce eyespace with G4 or D1. There's a good reason "reduce eyespace" is the first fundamental of L&D.
I think the shape resembles a popular tsumego.

I guess Fuego's predicted sequence shows it noticed this also... Though I find it funny that in its previous prediction, it also felt white needed to add a move to live but decided to make two moves in a row elsewhere (contrasted to chasing white, now). I guess the situations are quite different.
I am curious what the proper joseki will be for this corner when the time comes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Springs to mind for :b1: (resembles a large knight's joseki).
$$ +---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 2 . . . . . . O . . .
$$ | . 5 1 O . O . . . , . . .
$$ | . 7 4 6 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . O . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . .[/go]
I may have considered the 3-3 first.
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