[go]$$Wc a and b are miai $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . a , 4 . 2 X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . 7 5 3 O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 8 6 X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . b . . 1 O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Therefore, White needs to accept having made a mistake, minimize the damage, and bite down hard in preparation for the tough struggle ahead.
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:08 am
by opex
Sorry for being slow, i have too many things going on and wish i had more time
Again i missed that move. Now it looks like i was too optimistic. I can't save both groups. Then i'll connect two weak groups and abandon four stones for now.
$$Wcm72 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm72 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 1 X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:19 am
by The Intrepid
@opex after the game
Excellent choice, opex! Rather than worsening your position further by going for a futile all-in play of trying to save both cutting groups, you chose to hunker down and steel yourself for a prolonged struggle, Russian-Labor-Defense style. You truly are a tough nut to crack. (Sorry observers, Russian joke.)
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:23 pm
by DJLLAP
$$Wcm72 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:40 pm
by DJLLAP
According to my counting I am 10-15 points ahead in solid territory. I think that if I can pull off a good job in reducing White's moyo I stand a good chance of winning. Sliding at "a" looks big, but is not necessarily sente, and I don't think I can give W a free move on the left side. Splitting moves like "c" or "d" also look attractive, but I am not very confident that they can live without giving away a lot of thickness. "d" looks like the better option because if the support given by m17. The moves I am thinking about the most are "b" and something close to "e". "b" would give W the opportunity to build a wall facing her forces on the north, but may also split off her stones at D4. Something around "e"that puts pressure on w's group there looks good to me. If I play it right, I may be able to create a wall facing the left side that will aid in invasions or reductions. I think I am going to read out some variations and post again later today or maybe tomorrow.
$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . d . . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . e . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . b . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . 2 . . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I decided on this move. No real particular reason why. Just a feeling it might be the best. I was too lazy to read everything out.
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:10 am
by peppernut
This strikes me as the wrong side, if you're going to invade. Given that there's 1 more space on the left side, does anyone else think that C11 is a more appropriate invasion?
I think I get Black's idea; the K16 stone is pincered, but White can simply attack and gain strength that way. For example:
$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and black is not yet alive while White is making lots of territory, and reducing black's potential on the upper right. The white stone at K16 has no problem escaping because it can go to either side.
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:35 pm
by Dragon Pie
peppernut wrote:
This strikes me as the wrong side, if you're going to invade. Given that there's 1 more space on the left side, does anyone else think that C11 is a more appropriate invasion?
I think I get Black's idea; the K16 stone is pincered, but White can simply attack and gain strength that way. For example:
$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm74 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . 7 6 . 2 3 . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 8 . 4 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
and black is not yet alive while White is making lots of territory, and reducing black's potential on the upper right. The white stone at K16 has no problem escaping because it can go to either side.
I'd want to invade somewhere around where he invaded keeping in mind that he has support nearby and also considering that I'd hope to activate the aji O10.
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:07 am
by opex
Hm, i expected that since my stone is on the fourth line, it doesn't hold territory, and black can grab it, but i want to receive thickness in return. I couldn't find a nice move to build a wall facing bottom. So i'll treat this as an invasion and separate black.
$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X 1 . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X O . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is really the only answer I considered. If White jumps With 1, I am undecided between an extension at "b", or trying to split attacking the right side group at "a". White cannot connect under at "c" without a Ko fight, so it may be a good chance to make some profit attacking, but if I lose sente at all, My other group may come under severe attack.
$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . b . . X O . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm76 Captures: b - 1, w - 6. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . b . . X O . . X . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . X . O . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . O X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . O O X . X c . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X X X O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . O O | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X O . O X X . . O . | $$ | . . . . O O . . . . . . O X . O O . O | $$ | . . O O . X X . . , X . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . X O X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X O O X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: #179 - DJLLAP vs opex
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:58 am
by The Intrepid
If White plays (which he pretty much has to), I would first consider . The White group is in no way stronger than the Black group. Thus, if the two groups keep pushing one another toward the center where Black is strong (marked stones), the fight would become disadvantageous for White. As such, Black could expect to have no difficulties saving his invasion group after . The moves which DJLLAP considers seem much less promising to me by contrast.
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?
might be safer.
You truly are a tough nut to crack. 
(Sorry observers, Russian joke.)
and gain strength that way. For example: 
and gain strength that way. For example: 
(which he pretty much has to), I would first consider 
. The White group is in no way stronger than the Black group. Thus, if the two groups keep pushing one another toward the center where Black is strong (marked stones), the fight would become disadvantageous for White. As such, Black could expect to have no difficulties saving his invasion group after