#201 drmwc vs lovelove

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Bill Spight
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Bill Spight »

@ Uberdude and other observers

White is thin. So thin in so many places that I think that he may well end up sacrificing some stones. By proximity scoring he is way ahead on the board, but something has to give. Still, with komi and the move I think that he is nicely ahead.

My style is different, so I do not have much idea where he will play next. He seems confident that he can connect the dots. :)
Last edited by Bill Spight on Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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skydyr
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by skydyr »

Uberdude wrote:Black and white seem to have quite different approaches to this game. drmwc anticipates close combat fighting (and posts variations of them), whereas lovelove tends to just dodge and play lightly. Did he read the same fight and see it was bad for him and hence dodge, or never plan to fight? He doesn't comment much so it's hard to tell.

Also, I like how they both think they are ahead, only one way to settle that :)


I've found this quite interesting as well. I get the impression that white has been looking from a broader perspective than black at local issues. White seemed to be very unconcerned by black's topside invasion, for example, while it seemed like black would not have liked to be on the receiving end of it. By my count, black is ahead on the board, but perhaps not quite by komi. White has several areas of influence that black does not enjoy as well.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Uberdude »

My bet is on black to win, not really based on an accurate assessment of the board; mainly that I think he was ahead before and I've not noticed a major change, and also that I know who black is and I'd expect him to beat a kgs 5d.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Bill Spight »

Uberdude wrote:
My bet is on black to win, not really based on an accurate assessment of the board; mainly that I think he was ahead before and I've not noticed a major change, and also that I know who black is and I'd expect him to beat a kgs 5d.


Good point about his being ahead before. :b65: pretty well said I'm ahead, and I think that he was. But he has continued to play that way, and I think that he has frittered away some points. As White I would not be confident, because I don't know how to handle his position. But plainly lovelove does know how to handle such positions. :) Maybe I am giving him too much credit. :-|

Anyway the rest of the game should be quite interesting. :)
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Uberdude »

Yeah, white is very thin all over the centre. If black screws up white could get a lot more there than he deserves, but I expect black will whittle it down reasonably by poking around at its weaknesses.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There are too many alternatives, with really similar values. Thinking about G2/G3, S15, N13 next.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Magicwand »

at first glance
Below looks better than what he played...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . 2 C O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


now black playing as below is stronger than top so white might lose that point.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O 3 . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The area I've played in feels the hottest of any place on the board. If W replies as below, I intend to fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . 4 . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O 3 5 . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X a b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I could compromise by playing at a or b in reply to 4. However, then the game is (by my counting) very close. And I'm bad at counting.

So I will try to take a little more to swing things in my favour. A possible continuation is:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . 9 O . . 2 . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O 8 7 . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X 5 O . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X 1 . O 4 . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O b . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . X O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O O X . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X O . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X X 5 O O . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X O 1 . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 O 2 3 . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


3 in the first of the two diagrams above is a probe, and my reading is that it gets me a good result wherever W plays. For example, in the line shown, a and b are miai for B.

There are lots of possible variants, and I have no idea how W will reply.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X 4 . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems the best response, too big to tenuki.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My choice was between 105 and a below

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . g O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . 9 . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . 7 . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O 8 O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . b . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 5 a c . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I chose 105 because the follow at b is pretty big. Teh drawback is leaving the peep at c behing.

If I get sente in this area, I am contempating playing 107 as shown. My choice following this move is 109 as in the diagram, or alternatively playing at g immediately seems to work.

I think I have a small lead if this happens,
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not sure about this move.
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by drmwc »

I just had a new Go board delivered :lol: :

Image


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X 9 7 8 . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . . . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Uberdude »

Black surely wins with such a fearsome weapon!

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Bill Spight
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by Bill Spight »

As I thought, it looks like a White sacrifice is in the offing. :)
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lovelove
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Re: #201 drmwc vs lovelove

Post by lovelove »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm101
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X X X X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O O . O . . . O O X O O . O . . |
$$ | . O X O X . . . . O . . O . O , O . . |
$$ | . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | . O . X . . . . . . . O . X X X . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X X O . O . . O . X . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O . 0 . , . . X O X , . . . |
$$ | . O X O X O X . . O . . O O X . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think black made a little endgame mistake.
Amsterdam, soon.
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