50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

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Magicwand
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X 5 . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O 6 . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think here is better than pushing first.
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Magicwand
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . 7 . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm still surprised he cut, but I can't see a reason not to proceed as planned...
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Magicwand
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O W . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm81 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O O . . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . X 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This threatens to ladder the two white cutting stones. Meanwhile, my group is getting stronger and I'm hopefully getting enough influence to fight on the bottom. He can atari at E11, but he can't go anywhere with it while the ladder is in play. Next I push at D9 or maybe D8.

I can easily sacrifice the two black stones at F13 if it's to my advantage, but I will also consider running with them, which attacks two white groups. I just don't want them to get in a feud with my center group; I have to ascertain its status, perhaps find some sente forcing moves to stabilize it.
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O O 1 . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
seems like he is willing to give me that 2 stone.. thank you.
he will not be able to stablize that group easily. he is in big trouble. lucky for him that he only have 1 group to save.
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The greater the unknown"
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

I'm going to take some time on the next one.
But here are my thoughts:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y O Y Y O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . Y Y O Y Y O . |
$$ | . X X X W . . . . , . . . O Y Y O . . |
$$ | . . W . W . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . W . W # . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . W . B W # . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . B . B @ @ @ . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . B . . . B B . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . Q B B . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | Q . Q a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . Q . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . B . b . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . Q Q Q . . . . . c O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . P . P . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X P P . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These are the groups in play. Geeze, looks like I've made things more complicated than I know what to do with. Having sente for this long and having things work out how I expect is dizzying.

OK, a top priority is stabilizing :bc:. :wc: is connected to :wt: in ko, but is not alive. Keeping that weak is a BFD. Likewise :ws: is still weak, but can run to the right, which is a big white welcoming committee, save my one stone poking out. That makes :bs: pretty important, I think. Probably more important than I think. At least, I think so. And I can't just casually jump up with them, the squeeze will be an issue. Maybe sacrificing them is correct if I can get territory at the top in exchange.

Also, :wt: is easily alive, but I may have forcing moves against it. Pushing at a feels forcing, cause the atari might be tricky for white. It's also the lifeline for :wc: and :wx:. Speaking of :wx:, I really want to cut that off, but it's not clear that I can do that easily. Even if the cut at b works, he can try running to the right too. If I cut at b, can I actually cut again if he plays c? It may be better to make threatening moves there to reinforce my center before making use of :bs:.

Also, I've got :bt: in the back of my mind. Yeah, locally, it's unconditionally alive. But there are sente moves against it, and they may affect the upcoming fighting.

Right now, I've still got the lead, though I think I've squandered about 4 handicap stones worth by now. I do have a lot more solid territory. If I can avoid letting my groups die, can get some of the top side territory, and turn most of the middle into dame, preventing much white territory, I should still be able to win. I'm quite dismayed that I may end up with six or seven groups on the board.

MUST KEEP SENTE. MUST KEEP SENTE. MUST KEEP SENTE.
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

I'm going to have to take a hiatus from the game. Hopefully won't be overly long.
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by walleye »

fwiffo wrote:
...I think the result is favorable for black.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X X . . .
$$ | . X X X O . . . .
$$ | . . O O O . . . .
$$ | . . O X O X . . .
$$ | . O . X O X . . .
$$ | . . X 3 X O O 4 .
$$ | . X . . 2 X 1 . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | O . O . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .[/go]
fwiffo:
Your reading was pretty accurate here. I'm very curious to learn why you think this result is favorable for Black. I'm not saying it is not. I'm not passing any judgment at all. Just curious to see your thinking.
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fwiffo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O O O . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
OK, it looks like I'll be able to continue after all.

@walleye
Well, I felt like if white wanted to capture those two stones it would be gote, and I would get enough going in the center to attack the bottom white group. If white didn't take those stones, I could pull them out, and they would be attacking just by running between two weak groups.

The more I look at it, the less I like it. I don't think cutting at F5 actually works for me. I need to cut on the other side also, and I don't think I can keep both cuts working at the same time. And I really think I underestimated the value of white taking those stones.

So, given the situation I'm in, I'm going to just worry about settling the larger group for now. I think this move is sente, though there are too many responses for me to analyze. But if white does take gote to, e.g. net the two black stones, I'll try to make territory at the top by threating to pull them out.

In a way, I'm guilty of lazyness. I looked at that one point jump, read out the cut, and didn't consider the consequences very thoroughly. I just figured it was good enough that white would not cut. Of course, white is going to cut in a handicap game, even if it's risky, because it's a handicap game and white benefits from complications. I didn't give enough considerations to other moves which maybe also would have given me a result I found satisfactory without allowing a cut.
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Shaddy
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Shaddy »

I'm not quite sure why, but I like this move VERY much.
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Magicwand
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Magicwand »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm91 Prisoners - W: 2, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X . X O O O . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . . 3 X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
trying to make sure he doesnt live to easily
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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fwiffo
Gosei
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by fwiffo »

I have to connect, right? If I don't connect, I lose an eye and the two black stones lose all their value. Well, in fact, I really want to do this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B white 4 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 X O O O . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . 3 W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 1 . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O 5 . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm going to have to do some more reading to see if this really works. My last move was a threat, and if I don't follow up, what kind of coward am I?

(famous last words)
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Bill Spight
Honinbo
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Re: 50. Magicwand (3d) v. Fwiffo (4k)

Post by Bill Spight »

fwiffo wrote:
I have to connect, right? If I don't connect, I lose an eye and the two black stones lose all their value. Well, in fact, I really want to do this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B white 4 connects
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . X X O X X O . |
$$ | . X X X O . . . . , . . . O X X O . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . O . O . |
$$ | . O . X O X . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . X 2 X O O O . . . . . X . X X X . |
$$ | . X . 3 W X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X 1 . . . . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . X . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O O O 5 . . . . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . O . O . X X . O . . O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . O . O X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . . X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm going to have to do some more reading to see if this really works. My last move was a threat, and if I don't follow up, what kind of coward am I?

(famous last words)
Not for players:
"You gotta go where you want to go,
Do what you want to do."

--- The Mamas and Papas

;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
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