I know you refer to me too when talking about unrealistic expectations and studying joseki. Ironically, both are related. When you study daily under the tutoring of a pro, I don't question joseki study. They are playing games and reviewing them and loads of tsumego too. Hen on a fast track to 4-5d the diet is different.
What I criticize is the average 6k studying joseki and expecting this to have An impact on their game or winning ratio.
Studying Go in China
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Knotwilg
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China [30/07: updated with new pictures]
If you study pro games, everything is there. Pretty much by definition. 
However, you have to dig beneath the surface, to see why plays that were not played were not played.
Similarly, as Robert Jasiek has pointed out, if you study joseki, quite a lot is there. Tesuji, shape, fighting, life and death, judgement of thickness vs. territory, exchange, efficiency, and so on. But you also have to dig beneath the surface. If you simply memorize joseki, which is a difficult task in itself, there is a very real danger of stifling your creativity, of making plays because they are joseki, of playing automatically.
When I was a kyu player the first book I got on joseki was about joseki mistakes. The second was about how to play after joseki. When, as a dan player, I continued my study of joseki deviations and tricks, and I began my study of joseki with the large knight's response to the knight's approach to the 4-4, because there are many variations and because it is hardly played these days, so I would not be tempted to memorize it. I am not at all sure that the lengths I went to to avoid memorizing joseki were worth it, but if I had it to do all over again, I don't think that I would change much.
However, you have to dig beneath the surface, to see why plays that were not played were not played. Similarly, as Robert Jasiek has pointed out, if you study joseki, quite a lot is there. Tesuji, shape, fighting, life and death, judgement of thickness vs. territory, exchange, efficiency, and so on. But you also have to dig beneath the surface. If you simply memorize joseki, which is a difficult task in itself, there is a very real danger of stifling your creativity, of making plays because they are joseki, of playing automatically.
When I was a kyu player the first book I got on joseki was about joseki mistakes. The second was about how to play after joseki. When, as a dan player, I continued my study of joseki deviations and tricks, and I began my study of joseki with the large knight's response to the knight's approach to the 4-4, because there are many variations and because it is hardly played these days, so I would not be tempted to memorize it. I am not at all sure that the lengths I went to to avoid memorizing joseki were worth it, but if I had it to do all over again, I don't think that I would change much.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China [30/07: updated with new pictures]
When to start studying joseki is a delicate subject indeed. I think that most people would agree that if you aim to become truly strong at go, you'll have to study joseki at some point. The reason Yan Laoshi always gives for us having to memorize as many joseki as possible, is because we would have more options to choose from when playing a game. Just a few hours ago, I played a game in which I played the following attachment.
Regardless of whether or not it was the best move in this situation, I managed to play something which one month ago, I would never even have dreamt of playing. The only reason I was able to pick this move is because I've been studying a lot of joseki, the variations stemming from this move being some of them. I would therefore argue that studying joseki does not stifle one's creativity, but on the contrary unleashes it.
Regardless of whether or not it was the best move in this situation, I managed to play something which one month ago, I would never even have dreamt of playing. The only reason I was able to pick this move is because I've been studying a lot of joseki, the variations stemming from this move being some of them. I would therefore argue that studying joseki does not stifle one's creativity, but on the contrary unleashes it.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Studying Go in China [30/07: updated with new pictures]
Hushfield wrote:Regardless of whether or not it was the best move in this situation, I managed to play something which one month ago, I would never even have dreamt of playing. The only reason I was able to pick this move is because I've been studying a lot of joseki, the variations stemming from this move being some of them. I would therefore argue that studying joseki does not stifle one's creativity, but on the contrary unleashes it.
It's a two-edged sword, see my Malkovich game with topazg.
On move 13 I never even considered a non-Joseki-move but (among others maybe) Uberdude and Bill Spight did (who are on the other hand far stronger than me ^^).
In the end I guess it's not the knowledge of Joseki moves, which could kill creativity and an open-minded approach to a position. It's the associations with "best move", "equal result" and so on, that are often misleading and create blind spots for non-Joseki moves. Kind of similar to why it's bad to follow proverbs blindly.
And as Bill Spight mentioned, there are many ways of learning Josekis without taking the memorisation approach. I also favour the approach via studying "Tesuji, shape, fighting, life and death, judgement of thickness vs. territory, exchange, efficiency, and so on".
In the end a Joseki does not make for a move good, it's a good move that makes for a Joseki :P
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China [30/07: updated with new pictures]
Hushfield wrote:When to start studying joseki is a delicate subject indeed. I think that most people would agree that if you aim to become truly strong at go, you'll have to study joseki at some point. The reason Yan Laoshi always gives for us having to memorize as many joseki as possible, is because we would have more options to choose from when playing a game. Just a few hours ago, I played a game in which I played the following attachment.
Regardless of whether or not it was the best move in this situation, I managed to play something which one month ago, I would never even have dreamt of playing. The only reason I was able to pick this move is because I've been studying a lot of joseki, the variations stemming from this move being some of them. I would therefore argue that studying joseki does not stifle one's creativity, but on the contrary unleashes it.
Good point.
If you have never seen 
, seeing it in a joseki book (or pro game) allows you to add it to your arsenal. But is memorization the best way to study this joseki? Is seeing it and getting an idea of the continuations enough to let you use it yourself? (OC, it would be better to study it thoroughly, but that is not the same as memorization, either.) Another question is, why hadn't you seen that joseki before? Why hadn't you thought of that move? Is it because you memorized other joseki with different
instead? Is it because you were cautioned, as a beginner, not to attach to your opponent's stones? If so, then your creativity had already been stifled.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China [30/07: updated with new pictures]
Just a brief comment on memorization.
Memorization is a traditional way of learning, and certainly is one way of putting knowledge at your fingertips. Furthermore, one mark of an expert is having knowledge at your fingertips. As is obvious from my other remarks, I have not been a fan of memorization, preferring to focus on other things in my study and let memorization be a side effect. But in recent years I have begun to question my attitude towards memorization.
For instance, my study of tsumego was hampered by my attitude towards memorization. I waited a long time before reviewing tsumego, because I did not want to rely upon remembering the solutions. Since I did not have many problems to study, that meant that I did not do a lot of tsumego. I have done only a few hundred in my whole life. In retrospect, I think my go would have benefited if I had forged ahead and ended up memorizing the whole Maeda series.
I do think that there are things in go that should be memorized, such as the snapback, or the throw-in to take away a potential liberty. I also think that it is a good idea to memorize the first moves of joseki, up to five or more. That includes Hushfield's example, as it turns out. That's a lot. How many people are aware of the 8-3 approach to the 4-4, for instance? Or the 5-5 approach to the 5-3?
Memorization is a traditional way of learning, and certainly is one way of putting knowledge at your fingertips. Furthermore, one mark of an expert is having knowledge at your fingertips. As is obvious from my other remarks, I have not been a fan of memorization, preferring to focus on other things in my study and let memorization be a side effect. But in recent years I have begun to question my attitude towards memorization.
For instance, my study of tsumego was hampered by my attitude towards memorization. I waited a long time before reviewing tsumego, because I did not want to rely upon remembering the solutions. Since I did not have many problems to study, that meant that I did not do a lot of tsumego. I have done only a few hundred in my whole life. In retrospect, I think my go would have benefited if I had forged ahead and ended up memorizing the whole Maeda series.
I do think that there are things in go that should be memorized, such as the snapback, or the throw-in to take away a potential liberty. I also think that it is a good idea to memorize the first moves of joseki, up to five or more. That includes Hushfield's example, as it turns out.
That's a lot. How many people are aware of the 8-3 approach to the 4-4, for instance? Or the 5-5 approach to the 5-3?The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
Good things happened. These are the teaching games from Saturday and Sunday.
In the first game, my opening was pretty terrible, and white could have finished the game really early. Yan Laoshi decided to let me off the hook, because that way there would be more opportunities for teaching. It's a teaching game after all.
The second game was a bit different. Every game up to this point opened with a white approach to a star point, and a 1-space low pincer by black in response. So Yan Laoshi was grinning from ear to ear when he played his first move, and immediately seized the initiative to steer the game in an unfamiliar direction.
This made for two wins in a row, and I got promoted to 3 stones. I did not expect this at all. I assume that the combination of turning the momentum of a game around in game 1 and showing fighting spirit and some tesuji in game 2 was enough to qualify for 3-stone teaching games.
I asked what I should focus on, and was told to continue with the same direction of play and playing big moves when they're available to me, but to also make sure I focus on playing good, thick shapes, as fighting will become more complex from now on. Furthermore, I'll be exposed to more difficult joseki.
In the first game, my opening was pretty terrible, and white could have finished the game really early. Yan Laoshi decided to let me off the hook, because that way there would be more opportunities for teaching. It's a teaching game after all.
The second game was a bit different. Every game up to this point opened with a white approach to a star point, and a 1-space low pincer by black in response. So Yan Laoshi was grinning from ear to ear when he played his first move, and immediately seized the initiative to steer the game in an unfamiliar direction.
This made for two wins in a row, and I got promoted to 3 stones. I did not expect this at all. I assume that the combination of turning the momentum of a game around in game 1 and showing fighting spirit and some tesuji in game 2 was enough to qualify for 3-stone teaching games.
I asked what I should focus on, and was told to continue with the same direction of play and playing big moves when they're available to me, but to also make sure I focus on playing good, thick shapes, as fighting will become more complex from now on. Furthermore, I'll be exposed to more difficult joseki.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Studying Go in China
Congratulations.
As for your opening in game 1 up to move 30, many dan players would not have done better.
As for your opening in game 1 up to move 30, many dan players would not have done better.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Studying Go in China
Black feels really strong in the second game! :O Especially reading out the bottom variations 
in the (first) variation in the first game is a very nice move. I will try hard to remember this shape : )
in the (first) variation in the first game is a very nice move. I will try hard to remember this shape : )-
Uberdude
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Re: Studying Go in China
Game 1 move 100: how about h6 nose tesuji? No wishy-washy attack from a distance (where's the profit), play severe tactical move. 
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
School days are a bit different now, as a lot of the kids have other obligations. These consist of piano lessons, violin lessons, dance lessons, English lessons, more math, because, hey why not, right? I even heard that if you're only studying one instrument or have a single extracurricular activity, you're considered somewhat of a slacker. The kids here have so many extracurricular activities it would be enough to give most Belgian kids mental breakdowns or severe depressions. The result: pretty empty go school. All but one of the kids that turned up were in the mid-strong 5d range.
Yesterday's games: In the first game, I played Hu Jian Zi again. It's only my second time playing him. He's one of the stronger 5d kids at the school (I think he's about the same age as the two kids that took the pro exam).
I usually try not to get my panties in a bunch over ranks and ratings, especially as they're not all that accurate in a lot of rating systems. But here's a little more info for those interested: in the schools we visit 1d and 2d are probably strong single digit kyu by EGF standards. There's a lot of variation in the 3d range. There are some pretty strong kids, but there are also those that I can beat in even game. 4d is a bit stronger yet (EGF 2d and upwards), and 5d has an incredible amount of range. The weakest 5d we've encountered would be around EGF 2d, and the strongest 5d can give the weakest 2 stones easily.
For reference: if you want a 6d rank, you need to win (or get second place) in a ranking tournament. I heard that 7d is only awarded to the winner of the amateur go championship. I'm not 100% sure about the exact terms for these last two, but I'm sure there's someone here that knows where to find the exact qualification terms. By the way, Zhou Zi Yi (notice we're at the third different spelling of his name now, this time from the man himself), the 10-year old tsumego prodigy, is off to one of the national tournaments in pursuit of a promotion to 6d. Best of luck to him.
But yes, today's game. Hu Jian Zi is a strong 5d. He gave an EGF 1d and an AGA 3d two stones, played them simultaneously and made both resign in about 40 moves. Still, I'm quite unsatisfied with the game because I lost after once more failing to read an answer in a tactical situation. Need we say it? Do more go problems. For those interested:
The problem:
The solution:
The entire game:
The game against Zhou Zi Yi consisted of me making several joseki mistakes, wrong answers to probes and generally losing my two handicap stones until white decided it was overplay time. This gave me a fighting chance, until I let greed get the better of me.
It was his birthday, so we'll let this slide as a birthday present. Ahum.
Today's games were not much better. A game I won but should have lost:
The second game was another of the dreaded running battles. The result further reinforced my dislike for this type of games:
Writing a study journal can also serve some therapeutic purpose. After today's games at school I felt pretty bad. I overplayed, played crude moves and misread a lot. Having another look at those games, and writing about them allows me to compartmentalize them, and just look for some things to work on.
What to take away from yesterday's games: Continue study of 5-3 point joseki. Do more tesuji and life and death problems. What to take away from today's games: Read far enough ahead to see whether a move might turn out to be an overplay or not. Do more tesuji and life and death problems.
If you stuck with the post this far, thanks for reading. As always your feedback is greatly appreciated.
Yesterday's games: In the first game, I played Hu Jian Zi again. It's only my second time playing him. He's one of the stronger 5d kids at the school (I think he's about the same age as the two kids that took the pro exam).
I usually try not to get my panties in a bunch over ranks and ratings, especially as they're not all that accurate in a lot of rating systems. But here's a little more info for those interested: in the schools we visit 1d and 2d are probably strong single digit kyu by EGF standards. There's a lot of variation in the 3d range. There are some pretty strong kids, but there are also those that I can beat in even game. 4d is a bit stronger yet (EGF 2d and upwards), and 5d has an incredible amount of range. The weakest 5d we've encountered would be around EGF 2d, and the strongest 5d can give the weakest 2 stones easily.
For reference: if you want a 6d rank, you need to win (or get second place) in a ranking tournament. I heard that 7d is only awarded to the winner of the amateur go championship. I'm not 100% sure about the exact terms for these last two, but I'm sure there's someone here that knows where to find the exact qualification terms. By the way, Zhou Zi Yi (notice we're at the third different spelling of his name now, this time from the man himself), the 10-year old tsumego prodigy, is off to one of the national tournaments in pursuit of a promotion to 6d. Best of luck to him.
But yes, today's game. Hu Jian Zi is a strong 5d. He gave an EGF 1d and an AGA 3d two stones, played them simultaneously and made both resign in about 40 moves. Still, I'm quite unsatisfied with the game because I lost after once more failing to read an answer in a tactical situation. Need we say it? Do more go problems. For those interested:
The problem:
The solution:
The game against Zhou Zi Yi consisted of me making several joseki mistakes, wrong answers to probes and generally losing my two handicap stones until white decided it was overplay time. This gave me a fighting chance, until I let greed get the better of me.
It was his birthday, so we'll let this slide as a birthday present. Ahum.
Today's games were not much better. A game I won but should have lost:
The second game was another of the dreaded running battles. The result further reinforced my dislike for this type of games:
Writing a study journal can also serve some therapeutic purpose. After today's games at school I felt pretty bad. I overplayed, played crude moves and misread a lot. Having another look at those games, and writing about them allows me to compartmentalize them, and just look for some things to work on.
What to take away from yesterday's games: Continue study of 5-3 point joseki. Do more tesuji and life and death problems. What to take away from today's games: Read far enough ahead to see whether a move might turn out to be an overplay or not. Do more tesuji and life and death problems.
If you stuck with the post this far, thanks for reading. As always your feedback is greatly appreciated.
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Knotwilg
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Re: Studying Go in China
In my opinion it is easier to analyze and cure overplays than underplays, therefore I wouldn't mind erring on the sharp side, as you are currently doing.
All your games are showing fighting spirit now. Getting the mentality straight is a good primer. Then you can study shapes and tactics to improve the local result. Already one can see recurring tactics in your games which may sometimes be wrongly chosen or ill timed but essentially show that you are building strong go muscles.
All your games are showing fighting spirit now. Getting the mentality straight is a good primer. Then you can study shapes and tactics to improve the local result. Already one can see recurring tactics in your games which may sometimes be wrongly chosen or ill timed but essentially show that you are building strong go muscles.
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Hushfield
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Re: Studying Go in China
Today is our day off. While we're still doing problems and joseki study, no games were played. This is as good a time as any to give you a bit more of an in-depth look at our teacher.
I haven't asked many questions about Yan laoshi's career as a go player, so the biographical info and player history is copied straight from Guo Juan's internet go school.
Yan laoshi mainly teaches young children (between the age of 8-14). I expect fifteen years of teaching have shaped him just as much as the kids he teaches. He talks in a way which is easy to understand, even if you know little to no Chinese. He loves telling jokes, funny anecdotes and making faces. Even though kids often get scolded during reviews, he makes sure there's laughs to be had as well, so the kids never feel bad after a review. He really likes the kids he teaches, which can be seen in almost everything he does, but perhaps is most clear in the occasional pat on the back or rub through a kid's hair after they suffer a rough loss. He always brings snacks and candy to school for the kids. We've heard that quite a few of his students have turned professional, but I don't have any numbers on that.
If some kid is making the same mistake repeatedly, Yan laoshi pulls out the discipline ruler. Apparently, he used to whack some of the kids on the head with that, until some of the western students (that came here long before we did) pointed out he really shouldn't do that. Now he just whacks the board instead, and air strangles them. The latter move always elicits loud laughing from the students following a review. As a joke, we got Yan laoshi a super-sized rolling pin, and called it his back-up discipline stick. It has already been used quite extensively for home teaching games and comic relief.
Two of his favourite phrases are: sushou (crude move) and bu shi weiqi. shi xiangqi. (that's not weiqi. that's chess!). The last one is often abbreviated to "No weiqi!"
When we're playing Yan laoshi in a teaching game, he becomes a different person. All jokes disappear, and he suddenly looks one feet taller and much more intimidating. While playing, he rubs two of the pale green yunzi from his bowl together. These sound exactly like a knife being sharpened. Just like the proverbial knife, his moves are never fancy, just very, very sharp. He's had a lot of time to perfect the art of the teaching game, but it's still impressive how he only plays basic moves. If you play well enough, he will resign, but if he judges you've made too many mistakes, he will press until you realize the only option is to put two stones on the board at the same time. Except for the seven-stone games with DDK players, I've never seen a game being counted.
Yan laoshi has an impressive collection of tsumego books. Judging from the amount of books, he really favours the two Japanese composers Maeda Nobuaki and Hashimoto Utaro.
Away from the board, Yan laoshi likes good food, fine alcohol, the company of his family, and basketball. Back when Yao Ming was still playing, that was his number one idol, but lately he's followed China in rooting for Kobe Bryant. It's probably his only flaw of character
. Yan laoshi used to play for a very long time, and according to his son (by far and away the best basketball player in the neighbourhood), Yan laoshi used to be a legendary 3-point shooter. We got him a new basketball for his birthday.
I was surprised to discover Yan laoshi also likes video games. His smartphone is a portable game station that never stops entertaining. One of the games I've seen him play the most is a Chinese old-school space shooter (in tradition of Gradius or R-Type). He's really good at it (still haven't managed to break his high score).
I haven't asked many questions about Yan laoshi's career as a go player, so the biographical info and player history is copied straight from Guo Juan's internet go school.
The honorific for teacher in China is laoshi (literally "old teacher", though the old should be seen as a sign of respect, not one of back aches and diminishing strength). Yan An (7p) is known to everybody here as Yan laoshi. That seems normal enough, but he also calls himself Yan laoshi, which we thought was a tad bit weird. The teacher thing doesn't stop there. Both his wife and son also call him Yan laoshi. And if that wasn't enough, the title is carried over to his wife as well. For the longest of times I thought she was called shimu. Until somebody told me that shimu actually just means "the teacher's wife". Even their son calls her shimu sometimes.Guo Juan's internet go school wrote:He learned Go at the age of 11. When he was 16 years old, he received training in the China National Team. He won third place in China ‘Xin Xiu Cup’ (new talented cup) in 1985. 4dan in 1982 and 7dan in 1989. In 1999, he founded the Hu Bei (province) WeiQi Club, and in 2001 the Hu Bei Tian Yuan Youth WeiQi Training Center. He has been successful in both playing and teach Go. He is a famous Go teacher in China now. He lives in Wuhan.
Yan laoshi mainly teaches young children (between the age of 8-14). I expect fifteen years of teaching have shaped him just as much as the kids he teaches. He talks in a way which is easy to understand, even if you know little to no Chinese. He loves telling jokes, funny anecdotes and making faces. Even though kids often get scolded during reviews, he makes sure there's laughs to be had as well, so the kids never feel bad after a review. He really likes the kids he teaches, which can be seen in almost everything he does, but perhaps is most clear in the occasional pat on the back or rub through a kid's hair after they suffer a rough loss. He always brings snacks and candy to school for the kids. We've heard that quite a few of his students have turned professional, but I don't have any numbers on that.
If some kid is making the same mistake repeatedly, Yan laoshi pulls out the discipline ruler. Apparently, he used to whack some of the kids on the head with that, until some of the western students (that came here long before we did) pointed out he really shouldn't do that. Now he just whacks the board instead, and air strangles them. The latter move always elicits loud laughing from the students following a review. As a joke, we got Yan laoshi a super-sized rolling pin, and called it his back-up discipline stick. It has already been used quite extensively for home teaching games and comic relief.
Two of his favourite phrases are: sushou (crude move) and bu shi weiqi. shi xiangqi. (that's not weiqi. that's chess!). The last one is often abbreviated to "No weiqi!"
When we're playing Yan laoshi in a teaching game, he becomes a different person. All jokes disappear, and he suddenly looks one feet taller and much more intimidating. While playing, he rubs two of the pale green yunzi from his bowl together. These sound exactly like a knife being sharpened. Just like the proverbial knife, his moves are never fancy, just very, very sharp. He's had a lot of time to perfect the art of the teaching game, but it's still impressive how he only plays basic moves. If you play well enough, he will resign, but if he judges you've made too many mistakes, he will press until you realize the only option is to put two stones on the board at the same time. Except for the seven-stone games with DDK players, I've never seen a game being counted.
Yan laoshi has an impressive collection of tsumego books. Judging from the amount of books, he really favours the two Japanese composers Maeda Nobuaki and Hashimoto Utaro.
Away from the board, Yan laoshi likes good food, fine alcohol, the company of his family, and basketball. Back when Yao Ming was still playing, that was his number one idol, but lately he's followed China in rooting for Kobe Bryant. It's probably his only flaw of character
. Yan laoshi used to play for a very long time, and according to his son (by far and away the best basketball player in the neighbourhood), Yan laoshi used to be a legendary 3-point shooter. We got him a new basketball for his birthday. I was surprised to discover Yan laoshi also likes video games. His smartphone is a portable game station that never stops entertaining. One of the games I've seen him play the most is a Chinese old-school space shooter (in tradition of Gradius or R-Type). He's really good at it (still haven't managed to break his high score).
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SamT
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Re: Studying Go in China
Hushfield, this is an amazing journal Please keep sharing. Very inspiring!
To everyone else:
I've been trying all day to figure out how to order 围棋定式大全, the Joseki book, but I can't figure out how to get Amazon.cn to work for a US user. It's very intimidating, and quite confusing.
Sorry to ask this, as I'm sure this may be common/tribal knowledge, but I am new: does anyone know where I can buy it from a place that actually wants my money?
Please keep sharing. Very inspiring!To everyone else:
I've been trying all day to figure out how to order 围棋定式大全, the Joseki book, but I can't figure out how to get Amazon.cn to work for a US user. It's very intimidating, and quite confusing.
Sorry to ask this, as I'm sure this may be common/tribal knowledge, but I am new: does anyone know where I can buy it from a place that actually wants my money?