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Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:30 am
by TegaiS
@BLACK (my team):
I like C14 less than C9 for two reasons.
1) IMHO after C9 white will not play C14 or F17. They will play on the right side. So we will have a chance to play C14 later. Or may be we will want to play F17 or C17. Who knows?
2) D11 is probably not the best pincer because it asks for C9. D10 or C12 look more unpleasant for us.
$$Bcm1 I don't see what to worry about.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 I don't see what to worry about.White can enlarge their corner a litle bit ...
$$Bcm1 ... but our group will be very strong.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 ... but our group will be very strong.I don't like playing at the lower right because it seems inconsistent to me. Why play C5, D5 and then abondon them?
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:41 am
by skydyr
Joaz Banbeck wrote: Kirby wrote: skydyr wrote: I thought I saw a post addressed to @white from you quoting Joaz with no additional commentary.
Yeah, I don't think so. Anyway, no trigger.
[admin]
There was a black post accidentally addressed to '@white'. I changed it.
-JB
[/admin]
Ah, that explains that.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:20 am
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
TegaiS wrote: ...
That is a perfectly good question. But it can be equally good when asked about K3 and Q3: Why play them and then abandon them?
As I said earlier, white has become strong in the corner, and I think that we must play to strengthen one neighboring group or the other.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I think that we really must play in one of the shaded areas.
My personal favorite would be O4, but I could be happy with any of them if you guys think that another one is best.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:54 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
bump
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:02 am
by Kirby
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:53 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
Kirby wrote: @black:
I've never seen it before, so I have no idea if it is joseki or not.
But in this position, it seems strongly biased toward the corner.
If the approach stone were a one-space low approach at R5, I'd be strongly in favor of it. Not only would it be a time-tested joseki, but it would be a closer play in response to a closer approach.
I think that it neglects K3 a bit. But if it is strong enough such that we can kill an invader around 'b', or at least make white regret having played there, it is ok with me.
EDIT: After playing with it, I can see that it does grab the corner because it makes the R3 attachment unplayable. So if you want to call K3 a light stone - and deal with it later - I can go for P4.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:03 pm
by Kirby
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:08 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
Updated opinion: White has become strong in the corner, and I think that we must play to strengthen one neighboring group or the other.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I think that we really must play in one of the shaded areas.
My personal favorite would be O4, but I could be happy with any of them if you guys think that another one is best.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:13 pm
by TegaiS
@Black
As I said earlier I don't like playing on the right. Do we have time to convince each other or should we already decide by voting? I still vote for C9.
What is the plan after white attack our two stones?
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1Generally I think that after wC3 the lower side became less interesting and we should neither play there nor make a wall facing it untill we are forced.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:23 pm
by TegaiS
@Black
This is the plan after white's invasion in the corner.
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:27 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@Black:
TegaiS wrote: ... Do we have time to convince each other or should we already decide by voting? I still vote for C9....
I don't really want to decide by voting. I'd rather see us decide by articulate discussion and subsequent mutual agreement. I consider voting to be a means of last resort.
If it did come down to a vote, I wouldn't want to overrule Kirby for C9. I might for C8, though.
Kirby wrote: @black
I wouldn't vote to overrule TegaiS for O4. I might for P4.
@white: Please be patient. We have some serious issues to discuss.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:27 am
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
TegaiS wrote: ...
I think that TegaiS points the direction to resolve this issue: we should look at the positions that would result and see how bad things could get for the unreinforced stones.
If we play a solid move on the right, the stones on the left look like this:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1...at least that is my guess at how they should be played.
If we play a solid move on the left, the stones on the rightt look like this:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1...at least that is my first impulse for black's play. It may not be best.
Any ideas?
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:34 am
by TegaiS
@BLACK:
$$Bcm1 Too many cutting points in our position here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Too many cutting points in our position here.We can play in the same direction but safer ...
$$Bcm1 ... this has both pluses and minuses. Difficult to assess.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 ... this has both pluses and minuses. Difficult to assess.White can also play more aggressively ...
$$Bcm1 ... this looks rather scary.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 ... this looks rather scary.In the second kind of diagrams we can at the worst defend the corner.
$$Bcm1 Here K3 and N3 stones are about equal and white have to care about the R6 stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Here K3 and N3 stones are about equal and white have to care about the R6 stone.That is a backup variation. May be we can do better if white actually play like this though I think they will not.
PS. Sorry Joaz, but I still think that
on the last diagram should be in C9.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:22 pm
by Kirby
@Black:
If I were playing solo, I'd probably go for this:
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1I'm not too concerned about the black stones, because I don't think it's possible to make a big position from them.
Leaving the two stones and playing elsewhere like that is kind of my style. Or maybe my weakness. Take your pick.
Re: Capital vs. Lowercase: Collaboration Game
Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:19 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
@BLACK:
TegaiS wrote: ...
In the second kind of diagrams we can at the worst defend the corner.
$$Bcm1 Here K3 and N3 stones are about equal and white have to care about the R6 stone.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Here K3 and N3 stones are about equal and white have to care about the R6 stone.Sorry, Kirby, but I'm finding TegaiS' arguments more convincing. So, in general, I'm starting to favor the left side.
But in particular:
TegaiS wrote: PS. Sorry Joaz, but I still think that
on the last diagram should be in C9.
As I mentioned in a previous diagram, I'm worried about being undercut. Below - in the circled stones - is a general pattern showing the flow that I expect to occur. ( Circled stone positions are approximate )
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Once white is at F7, he can invade, wiping out our eye space, and we are left with a group that is too big to abandon, and which threatens nothing, and whose outside influence is neutralized by the stones on the F file.
on the last diagram should be in C9.